Martin S Pribble
This post is written in response to a blog post, “Atheist De-conversion Evangelism,” written by “Stan” of Atheism-analyzed.blogspot.com.au, which was responding to my recent guest blog on MartinSPribble.com.
Dear Stan,
Before I set about refuting your individual claims, I thought it necessary to state a few assumptions that I will draw upon later. Firstly, I assume that you a human, (specifically of the genus Homo sapiens sapiens, descendent of those who left central equatorial Africa c. 100,000 – 85,000 years previously), and not a sex robot with theistic delusions of grandeur. If, in fact, you are a sex robot with theistic delusions of grandeur, please report to the nearest secret government facility for your next rendezvous with Bill Clinton’s cigar.
The second assumption is that you are able to read and write English. I have evidence for this as you both read my post on Marty’s blog (for which I am forever grateful – being a former atheist of 40 years I’m sure you’re aware that the only reason we atheists speak up are to end inequity and inequality, get famous, champion social justice causes, annoy theists, stop female genital mutilation, and, most importantly, get attention) and wrote a pithy reply.
Lastly, I’ll assume that you’re familiar with standard argument structure, i.e. premise and conclusion. Obviously, being so familiar with said argument structure, you would be aware that if a premise is faulty, or fallacious, the standard response from an intelligent person would be to state the following, “sir/madam, your argument premise is faulty, thus your argument is invalid. Please retract it at your earliest convenience.”
Now that I’ve stated those assumptions, I will commence rebuttal sequence in the most orderly manner I can think of; to rebuke in the order you presented your statements.
On the contrary, every field of study attributing their findings to the scientific method (i.e. we made a prediction and tested it, then repeated it, then put it out for everyone else to test it, and it remains valid until proven invalid or improved upon) finds that we live in a natural universe without any influence from outside (supernatural) forces. Based on the ongoing findings supporting a natural universe, atheism, (i.e. the lack of belief in god(s) and the supernatural) is an evidence based and logical position. As such, sir/madam, your argument premise is faulty, thus your argument is invalid. Please retract it at your earliest convenience.
The premise above, which posits that all scientific findings support a naturalistic universe without any requirement or evidence of any of the millions of gods and supernatural deities that humanity has believed in since our ancestors gained an enormous cortex capable of introspection, concludes that atheism is indeed an evidence based position. As such, no blind faith is necessary. Furthermore, if one wishes to understand the quantum underpinnings of this magnificent universe, blind faith would be a supremely inhibiting hindrance. As such, sir/madam, your argument premise is faulty, thus your argument is invalid. Please retract it at your earliest convenience.
While I am unsure of what is meant by the term “escalating scepticism”, chiefly because you made it up, I can indeed speak to the idea of an asymmetrical approach to dealing with multifaceted issues.
If you told me that there was a white chair in my office, I could walk into my office and check your claim. In a metaphorical way, this could be described as a symmetrical or linear way to address your claim. If, however, you told me that there was a white chair orbiting the distant star Betelgeuse, I would, metaphorically speaking, have to take a multifaceted approach to counter your claim. Such an approach, again, metaphorically, could be considered asymmetrical.
With that stated, your claim is an ad hominem, and thus not considered an argument. As such, sir/madam, your argument premise is faulty, thus your argument is invalid. Please retract it at your earliest convenience.
The first premise of your argument, that “atheism presents no morals” is correct. Around 2.5 million years ago our ancestor, Homo habilis began congregating in ever larger groups, as evidenced by the remains they left behind. Due to the fact that the ability to congregate, an ability which we take for granted (if you question this, please experiment by placing a foreign mature male gorilla in an established group), confers such an immense advantage in survival, those who were able to stay in groups passed on their sociable genes and propagated the remainder of the Homo genus with that trait.
Today, we call this trait “morality” (the elements that make up morality we call “ethics”), despite the fact that theists give it an absolute value, it is a continuously evolving socially derived mechanism. Evidence of this is the fact that slavery is abhorred in the West, yet continues in the East (and is both justified and endorsed in the New and Old Testaments of the bible). Further evidence of this is feminism and equality in the West and honour killing, segregation and subjugation of women in the East.
The remainder of your argument is objectively invalid because, as explained in the above two paragraphs, atheists do not make up morality, morality, an evolved trait, exists as a social construct independent of any religion or ideology. As such, sir/madam, your argument premise is faulty, thus your argument is invalid. Please retract it at your earliest convenience
If you will consider reading my first response, you will find that I have already addressed this claim. As such, sir/madam, your argument premise is faulty, thus your argument is invalid. Please retract it at your earliest convenience.
The premise of your first statement suggests that when atheists converse with theists they “rarely” do so “nicely”. As the atheist son of theist parents, the atheist husband of theist wife, the atheist sibling of several theist brothers and the atheist friend of multiple theist friends, I vehemently deny the consistency of this argument premise.
While I acknowledge that the following is anecdotal, (which I’m sure you’ll have no trouble with considering the distinct lack of evidence supporting every single one of your claims) I am yet to meet a single atheist who has been unable to hold a civil or “nice” conversation with a theist. What I do notice, however, is that both sides are rarely able to find common ground due to the theist’s inability to move past the inherent cognitive dissonance and into the evidence refuting their belief system. The inherent cognitive dissonance I speak of is summed up in the first point I made above. As such, sir/madam, your argument premise is faulty, thus your argument is invalid. Please retract it at your earliest convenience.
The remainder of this argument/claim is the reason I felt it necessary to state my first assumption. You’ve gone from making inconsistent and fallacious claims bereft of all evidence, to ranting. As such, I assumed you were low on batteries, though I fully acknowledge that you could be a diabetic, in which case, please, for the appeasement of the 10,000 gods of the Hindu pantheon, eat some sugar!
We have demonstrated above that atheism is an evidence based, logically coherent and rational position to hold. We have demonstrated that morality is an evolved trait and the values, or ethics, that comprise this trait, are societal and culturally derived. Lastly, we have seen that each of the, rather pithy, claims you made fall over like a metaphorical house of cards. As such, sir/madam, your argument premise is faulty, thus your argument is invalid. Please retract it at your earliest convenience.
Warmest and most sincere regards,
Jake Farr-Wharton
The last few years the climate change denier organisations have fooled themselves into thinking they are on a roll. (I am talking about deniers – not contrarians or sceptics). What with the “climategate affair,” the resulting investigations (which didn’t go their way) and the legal attacks on prominent climate scientists like Michael Mann (These have also failed). But really what they have been doing is feeding out the rope which will eventually hang them.
This is obviously the case with the US “think tank” The Heartland Institute. This rabid free market organisation had been trying hard to present themselves as purveyors of the “true” science on the climate. In particular, they have being sponsoring, together with a number of other dogmatic free market organisations, a conference they claim as “scientific.” But, they are not interested in finding facts, rather fighting facts. And that is the true purpose of their conference.
The most recent conference kicked off the other day (see Heartland Institute’s Seventh International Conference on Climate Change – ICCC-7). But its come at a bad time for them. Back in February there was the scandal of their leaked emails and documents. These revealed some details of their financial backers – as well as plans to subvert the educations system with climate denial propaganda (see Heartland Institute gets mail and Heartland’s climategate – and Mann’s book). Then earlier this month they really dished out the rope with a electronic billboard advertising this conference (see Heartland ignorant of public relations – let alone science).*
$825,000 gone – $1,430,000 to go!
This caused such a negative reaction that they pulled it within hours. But instead of effectively “fighting the facts” of climate science they were sawing off the branch they were sitting on. Within days they faced withdrawal of speakers from the conference, departure of staff, and, more importantly, withdrawal of finance from some of their sponsors. See Guardian report Heartland Institute facing uncertain future as staff depart and cash dries up).
Have a look at Forecast the Facts – a webs site charting the decline in Heartland’s financial support. As of today $US825,000 of their projected 2012 Corporate support of US$2,225,00 has been pulled.
And the climate reality project has responded with a public donor financed billboard giving some of the facts. This will be displayed throughout their conference. (You can make donations at Climate Reality | Donate).
All this has forced The Heartland Institute to fall back on other sponsors, both for their conference and for their own finances. Sponsors more directly and publicly connected to the fossil fuel industry (see Heartland Institute Hemorrhages Donors And Cash For Extremist Agenda, As Coal And Oil Step In).
“a coal lobby group has stepped in as one of its ‘gold’ sponsors. The Illinois coal chief praises Heartland for its work and ‘so we thought we would finally make a contribution to the organisation.’ He added, ‘In general, the message of the Heartland Institute is something the Illinois Coal Association supports.
In addition to the Illinois Coal Association, ExxonMobil, other oil companies, as well as Heritage Foundation have joined to sponsor the conference.”
Mind you, have a look at their co-sponsors for this conference. A whole host of political, extreme right-wing, organisations. You will recognise some of the names. The George C. Marshall Institute (who denied tobacco was harmful), Institute for Private Enterprise, Australian Taxpayers Alliance (“fighting tax, regulation and waste”), Heritage Foundation, Ayn Rand Institute, Competitive Enterprise Institute, and so on.
Oh, by the way – the only New Zealand sponsor I could see was the New Zealand Climate Science Coalition.
Footnote:
*Even the climate change denial internet echo chamber was largely critical of the Heartland billboard. (Although local denier blog Climate Conversations couldn’t quite make up its mind. Richard Treadgold, poor guy, thought it was “a stupid, brave, heart-warming experiment.” Couldn’t quite bring himself to be critical, although most of his commenters were – see … is sauce for the gander). And the Heartland Institute is such a sensitive topic at Watts Up With That you need a special password to join in any discussion of the conference – see Protected: At the conference.
Update: Seems Watts Up With That was so excited about attending the conference they cocked up that post. So it’s no longer “protected.”
They think they’re talking about laser tag.
I think they’re talking about religion.

Full cartoon is at So Your Life is Meaningless ![]()
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(In response to this post)
The city council in Mount Vernon, Ohio just pissed off religious nuts in the region:
As the May 14 meeting drew to a close, four council members spoke against the change. Afterward, on the city hall steps, voices and questions were raised: Who complained? Who made the decision?
Why wasn’t prayer on the agenda anymore?
…
“I think it’s pathetic,” said local religious advocate Jeff Cline… “We keep kicking God out of everything.”
So what exactly did they do to “kick god” off the agenda?
They moved their pre-meeting prayer from 7:30p… to 7:28p.
That’s it.
And it happened because Ryan Kitko, a student from The Ohio State University, requested it:
“We live in a diverse community of many faiths and non-faiths,” Kitko, an atheist, told the Mount Vernon News. “Having a prayer in any faith creates an atmosphere of exclusion.”
I’m sure the city council members believe their “generic” prayer is inclusive of everyone. What they don’t understand is how matters of god have no business in government meetings. Leave it to the local churches, the homes of local residents, and everywhere else where reality takes a backseat to superstition.
Kitko did the right thing in requesting that they remove the prayers and Council President Bruce Hawkins (at least in theory) honored the request by pushing up the prayer to when it’s not an official part of the agenda.
“The last thing we need in this community is division,” said Hawkins, who sought the advice of city Law Director Bill Smith before he made his decision. “The bottom line is, we want to make sure it’s legal.”
Even though the invocation is still being delivered, people aren’t happy with the time change:
“If one or two people want to change something that’s been done forever, I kind of a have a little problem with that,” [council member John] Fair said. “I don’t think one person has the authority to change what the majority of people feel.”
…
The public outcry and debate in Mount Vernon began less than 24 hours after the meeting ended. “ Prayer Shut Down at City Council Meetings?” someone posted on the anonymous online forum KnoxPages.com. “ONE person complained, and *poof* — prayer is no more.” The post garnered more than 70 responses.
“I frankly see this Ryan guy and [John] Freshwater as two sides of the same coin,” one user wrote. “ Intolerant and divisive.”
Already, there’s a plan to reinstate the invocation. If the city council is smart, they’ll reject it. I’m not holding out much hope.
(via Religion Clause)
Daughter-spawn here. I recently got back from CFI’s Women in Secularism conference in Washington, D.C. I’m just going to do some brief summaries/impressions of the talks/panels for those who were not one of the lucky 200-some people in attendance.
The first talk was by Susan Jacoby (author of The Age of American Unreason and Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism), entitled “The Dearth of Women in the Secular Movement: Let’s Look in the Mirror”
I unfortunately missed the first half of Jacoby’s talk, but she seemed all over the place. Jumping from discussing the history of secularism and feminism to the difference between the atheism and skepticism movements (the skeptic movement tending to be more conservative and male-oriented) to the recent case of an Arizona Catholic high school softball team forfeiting because the other team had a girl on it. I was having a hard time finding a cohesive theme in her talk. Rocky start to the conference, IMO.
This was made up for by the next session, a panel moderated by Annie Laurie Gaylor, with Ophelia Benson, Sikivu Hutchinson, Jennifer McCreight, and Rebecca Watson: “The Intersection of Non-theism and Feminism”.
Hutchinson provided a welcome racial minority perspective here. She talked about how disproportionately affected by sexism minority women were and are; how historically black women’s reproduction was strictly controlled by slave owners, how black and Hispanic women are seen as “dangerous breeders” and the recent laws regarding “chemical endangerment” and such are targeting them. I don’t think she really established a link between what she was talking about and secularism, but it was interesting nonetheless.
Hutchinson also criticised the secular movement for promoting scientism, saying that scientism generally excludes racial minorities and women, even throwing out the accusation of white supremacy.
Watson and McCreight discussed their experiences with introducing feminism into atheism/skepticism, and the backlash that results. The complaint when they do so is basically “this is not science/atheism, so it doesn’t belong here”. McCreight made the case that the goals are similar. Religious belief is irrational and not fact-based, and so is sexist belief. If your goal is to promote rational thinking, feminism is an inevitable part of that. But unfortunately, the difference between the two is that giving up religion feels freeing, whereas giving up sexist beliefs often feels more restricting.
Benson talked about how at some point, some of the feminist movement stopped pushing for equality, and embraced a “Okay, we’re not equal, but we’re different in good ways” attitude, which created the common stereotypes of women being more caring, better at emotions, more family-oriented, and so on. This attitude, perpetuated by a lot of women’s studies academics, has been harmful to women in secularism since none of these supposedly “good” stereotypes are advantageous for secular activism, so women are passed over.
The next talk was by the new head of the Secular Coalition for America, Edwina Rogers: “Religiously Motivated Legislation Particularly Harms Women”. Turns out the title was misleading. This 15-minute talk served more as an advertisement for the SCA. Most of it was discussing plans to expand to more states, the staff structure of the organisation, affiliated organisations, and so on. Then she whizzed through lists of the issues that SCA is focused on lobbying about — contraceptive access, violence against women, pharmacist and employer exemptions, and so on. She had to be somewhere else, so she couldn’t do a longer talk, but I’m not convinced that was a bad thing.
Next up was Annie Laurie Gaylor, “The History of Women in Freethought”. Great talk. I had no idea the extent to which women had been involved in the past. It’s sad how many of these women have been forgotten, and it wasn’t due to lack of contribution.
She talked about how the women’s rights movement was founded by female freethinkers. Since the lack of legal rights and lower social standing that women had were of biblical origin, it was the women who left religion who were the first to speak up.
She gave brief bios of a large number of female freethinkers: Anne Hutchinson (the first female heretic in North America, excluding Native Americans), Mary Wollstonecraft (who wrote the first book talking about women’s rights), Frances Wright (“Turn your churches into halls of science, exchange your teachers of faith for expounders of nature”), Ernestine L. Rose (who had a large hand in the Married Women’s Property Act), Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, Matilda Joslyn Gage (who founded the first feminist organisation to advocate separation of church and state).
Josephine K. Henry, Clara Colby, Lillie Devereux Blake, Mathilde Amneke, Ella Elvira Gibson, Helen H. Gardener, Harriet Marineau, Lydia Maria Child, Margaret Fuller, George Eliot (Marian Evans), Ouida (Marie Louise de la Ramée), Sharlot Hall, Elmina D. Slenker, Zona Gale, Ella Wheeler Wilcox, Charlotte Perkins Gilman, Lucy N. Coleman, Etta Semple, Susan H. Wixon, Marilla M. Ricker, Annie Besant, Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner, Voltairine de Cleyre, Emma Goldman, Lucy Parsons, Margret Sanger, Marian Noel Sherman, Dora Russell, Meridel le Sueur, Queen Silver, Margaret Knight, Butterfly McQueen, Vashti Cromwell McCollum, Ruth Hurmence Green, Catherine Fahringer, Barbara Smoker, Meg Bowman, Barbara G. Walker, Madalyn O’Hair, Kay Nolte Smith, Anne Nicol Gaylor, Sherry Matulis, Sonia Johnson, Barbara Ehrenreich, Katha Pollitt, Taslima Nasrin, Alice Walker, Ursula K. LeGuin, Wendy Kaminer, Ann Dryuan, Natalie Angier, Sara Paretsky, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Robin Morgan, Julia Sweeney, Jamila Bey, Susan Jacoby, Jennifer Michael Hecht, Sikivu Hutchinson, Jessica Ahlquist.
So much for the “there haven’t been very many female atheist activists” excuse for not being able to name five. For more on the subject, Gaylor has a book called Women Without Superstition.
So I’ll conclude part 1 here, and have part 2 up shortly, but there was something else I wanted to talk about. During the previously mentioned panel, Jen mentioned getting emails from women warning her about which male speakers at secular conferences that women should avoid. And from my talking with other people at the conference, it sounds like there are quite a few stories of well-known speakers being misogynistic or sleazy.
That’s a problem. It’s a problem that anyone is behaving that way, and it’s a problem that they’re not being called out on it. Several times the importance of calling people out on their actions was discussed at this conference, but this just isn’t being done.
If the issue is that individuals who’ve had these experiences are worried about backlash, or career suicide, I’m sure we could work out a way of anonymously publishing at least some of this information. If the issue is a fear of hurting the secular movement at large, I just don’t think that’s something to be greatly concerned about. So a speaker is called out for his comments or actions — they have the option to admit wrong and apologise, or to defend themselves, or to deny it. But at least there will be some amount of accountability. It might deter future misconduct, and conference organisers and attendees can make an informed choice about who to invite or support. There’s no shortage of good speakers to replace them.
Seriously, we need to do something about this.
My Scienceblogs site is a-changin’. National Geographic has been working behind the scenes to convert and move all the old data to a newer and prettier website, and the final surge of fixes is going into place tonight and tomorrow — so don’t bother commenting over there for a while until it’s all stabilized.
I suspect it will all go smoothly (and the new site is looking good) except for a little bit of drama. NatGeo has informed Abbie Smith that they want the ERV slimepit posts taken down, according to Abbie’s own account on facebook. There are various accusations as well that it’s us here at FtB who are responsible for the complaints that are bringing it down — which is not true. All along, NatGeo has been telling me that there will be new Standards & Practices rules at the National Geographic-branded Scienceblogs site — it’s why I took proactive steps to move all of the new godless anti-religion content to the new site at Freethoughtblogs. I’ve said since last August that there were posts that bugged our new NatGeo overlords, and that there were changes coming.
Abbie Smith is in denial. Now, in addition to implying that Sb crew at FtB are responsible for shutting down the slimepit, she claims I’ve been lying about the imminent changes.
NatGeo have been just fine. Not being sarcastic. PZ was blatantly *lying* about censorship from NatGeo last year.
So I said NatGeo would be lightly censoring content last year. This year, NatGeo is telling Abbie Smith to censor some offensive posts. Therefore, in Abbie Smith’s world, I was lying when I said NatGeo would be asking us to censor some content.
I don’t get it.
Don’t forget the comment contest that ends Midnight, East Coast time, May 31st.
The winner will receive a copy of Bart Ehrman’s latest book, Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth.
You can’t win if you don’t comment.
(sounds like a Lotto ad)
I plan to have comment contests regularly, so stay tuned…..
I was asked by a student to answer four questions for an assignment they are working on. Based on the nature of the questions I assume the student is a Christian and might even attend a Christian school. What follows is my answers.
What is your background, education, etc?
I am a 54 year old man, who attended Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan. I was a part of the Christian church for 50 years, 25 of those years spent pastoring Evangelical churches in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan.
Over the course of 25 years, I preached expostionally through many books of the Bible. I preached thousands of sermons at the churches I pastored and at Bible conferences, pastor’s fellowships, youth camps, and revival meetings. I made it my life’s ambition to know the Bible well.
I am now an atheist. I blog on a regular basis at The Way Forward.
I live in the rural NW Ohio community of Ney with my wife, three children, three cats, and one dog.
More information about me can be found here.
Does God exist and what is God like?
I will assume that the questioner is asking, Does the CHRISTIAN God exist and what is God like?
Before a person can determine if a particular God exists they must first answer the question does any God exists at all. Many Christians never ask themselves this question. They operate under the presupposition that there is only one God and that God is the Christian God. How can they know this until they have thoroughly investigated all the other gods in existence?
Christians are quite atheistic themselves. They deny any other God exists but theirs. As an atheist, I only believe in one less God than the Christian does. Of course this could be said of all believers, regardless of their religion.
As an atheist, I am agnostic about the question of whether or not a God exists. Is it possible that a God of some sort exists? Certainly. However, the question I ask myself is this; is it probable a God exists and my answer to that question is NO.
Based on the evidence at hand it is improbable that God exists. This is my answer to the question, “does A God exist?”
The question though is not about A God. Instead, the question is about THE God, the Christian God. On this question I am much more certain.
After weighing the evidence for the existence of the Christian God, I have concluded that the Christian God does not exist. After spending decades studying the Christian Bible, I have concluded that the God revealed in the Bible is the creation of the human mind and is no God at all. The Bible is an errant book filled with contradictions. It is not something that we can rely on to give us proof that God exists.
What’s wrong with the world and what is the solution to the problems of this world?
The world is filled with people who do good and bad things. Every human being does good and bad things.
One of the problems with the world stems from Christianity and its view of sin and the depravity of humanity. Humans are told that, from birth, they are vile, evil sinners in need of redemption. Deliverance from sin, according to the Christian, is through Jesus Christ. Unless a person becomes a follower of Jesus they are the enemy of God, a child of Satan, and will never have meaning or purpose in their life.
Humanity would be better served if it cast off these teachings and adopted a humanistic view of life. A view where humanity and the natural world take center stage rather than the Christian God and his son Jesus. As long humans seek to serve God above humanity and seek God’s forgiveness rather than the forgiveness of those actually offended we will never address the wrongs in the world.
Humans must be held accountable for the bad they do. Humans should also be praised for the good they do. There is no need to interject the Christian God into the middle of this.
As an atheist, I do not believe God exists so God cannot be the solution. As a humanist, I think that humans are the solution to the problems our world faces. No God is going to show up and fix things for us. Simply put, we broke it and it is up to us to fix it.
How can a person become right with God?
As an atheist, I do not think there is a God I need to be right with. As a humanist, I think I have a duty and obligation to be right with my fellow human beings. As much as lies within me, I should strive to be a peaceable, loving, compassionate, and kind person. I do not need a God to be able to be this kind of person.
What happens to a person at death?
What does the evidence tell us? People die. Cemeteries are everywhere. No one comes back from the dead. There is no empirical evidence for heaven, hell, or any sort of afterlife. As a finite being, I wish heaven and the afterlife were true but they are not. When our heart stops beating and our lungs stop breathing we are dead. That’s it. Our body ceases to live and we live on only in the memories that our friends and loved ones have of us.
Christianity teaches that the present life is one that must be endured. Successfully enduring this life results in a home in Heaven with God after death. Happiness is offloaded to a future life, a life that may or may not exist.
In the Christian view of eternity people like me will spend our afterlife in hell. (Lake of Fire) We will be punished for all eternity because we refused to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.
As an atheist, and a humanist, my focus is on the present. I only have one life to live. I only have this one opportunity to make a mark on the world I live in. I have no time for thoughts about God, heaven, or hell. As a husband of 34 years, father of six grown children and grandfather to eight, I have chosen to focus on being the best husband, father, and grandfather I can be. I fail many times in this endeavor but every day I get up and try to do better. As even the Bible says (Matthew 25), I hope that my life will be judged according to my works. I hope that my good works outweigh my bad works.
Keith Green, the deceased Christian artist, sang a song about Matthew 25. Matthew 25 teaches that our judgment by God will be determined, not by what we say we believe, but by how we live our lives. Matthew 25 speaks of sheep and goats, righteous and unrighteous. Green said this:
What is the difference between the two? What they did and did not do.
While I do not believe in Green’s God, I do believe the sentiments he expressed. I want my life to be judged according to my deeds. If there is a God (and I don’t think there is), surely how I lived my life is far more important than whether or not I believed the right things or said the right words.
So my little Geo Metro is the car that just keeps giving. In addition to 45 MPG, seating 4, and A/C, it also has a lovely hatchback with which I had surmised, would make, the perfect greenhouse. My last "extreme" gardening was growing watermelons in the cube (cubical) at work a few years back. They did wonderful, until transferred to natural light and then died like the Wicked Witch in a water-fall.
2012-05-21 (1).jpg
So with some hesitation, but hope, I purchased some flowers from my local florist and came home with the plan to make a hatchback-garden. I took a bucket, scooped up some rocks from the driveway, filled the bucket with soil, and planted the flowers. Almost immediately the flowers bloomed! A couple weeks later, they're growing insanely fast! I planted some of their sister plants in the yard, and they've barely grown. Which I can't really explain. (Must be Metro magic!)
2012-05-21 (2).jpg
I might have to try some veggies after my success with this. If I get hungry, I'll just reach back and grab a 'mater. Though my mobile greenhouse of flowers ensures I never have to buy an air-freshener again. This is truly a green car!
Statistics: Posted by Liv — May 21st, 2012, 4:25 pm — Replies 0 — Views 116
Do facts exist? At least one person has claimed that facts do not exist and that thinking they exist would violate Occam’s razor (i.e. multiply entities beyond necessity). However, there is much to be said as to why we have reason to believe that facts exist, such as the reasons to endorse various kinds of realism. I will discuss what facts are, whether they are supposed to refer to something that exists, whether any facts exist, and an objection against their existence. I will argue that all objections to the existence of facts are self-defeating and we have more reason to believe that some facts exist than that no facts exist as a result.
1. What are facts?
The word “fact” has a meaning within our language and other languages could have equivalent words that refer to the same concept. We can better understand the concept of “facts” by studying language, considering how the word should be used, and realizing that there are common confusions involving the word.
The word “fact” refers to the reality, state of affairs, or relations that make statements true. What exactly facts refer to is controversial among philosophers, but it involves reality, states of affairs, and/or relations. The statement “gravity exists” is true because it’s a fact that gravity exists—there is a reality, state of affairs, or relation that makes the statement true. Dropping objects causes them to fall and so forth.
It can be useful to consider examples of facts (and examples of how people use the word “fact”). People might say that “it’s a fact that the cat is on the mat,” “it’s a fact that 1+1=2,” or “it’s a fact that John has a headache.” These are all correct ways to use the word. If the statements are true, then corresponding facts exist that make them true.
It can also be useful to consider false statements that claim something is a fact. I can say, “It’s a fact that the Moon is made of cheese” or “it’s a fact that gravity doesn’t exist.” These statements about facts are false precisely because they don’t refer to facts that exist—they don’t properly describe reality.
Some people talk about facts that don’t exist, but there are no facts that don’t exist. If something is a fact, then it exists. There are false claims that something is a fact that isn’t a fact. For example, the claim that “it’s a fact that the Moon is made of cheese” is false precisely because it does not describe a fact at all. (The statement does not refer to a non-existent fact.)
2. Are facts supposed to refer to something that exists?
One important issue is whether or not the word “fact” is meant to refer to something that exists as we use the word in our language (or whether or not the concept refers to something that is supposed to exist). Some people might claim that the word “fact” isn’t even meant to refer to anything that exists. Perhaps saying that “it’s a fact that a cat is on the mat” isn’t supposed to describe something that exists. However, I think saying “it’s a fact that the cat is on the mat” is meant to describe something that exists. The statement could be false—there might not be such a fact. However, the possibility of false statements concerning facts is not the issue here. The question is whether stating something is a fact is a claim about whether a fact exists.
Saying that facts are supposed to exist (based on how we use the word) should not be surprising. Consider the statement that “it’s a fact that gravity exists.” This statement is saying that there is a fact and that fact is that gravity exists. Saying there is something means that something exists. In other words, the statement makes the claim that there is a fact that exists and that fact is that gravity exists. If we said that this fact doesn’t exist, then the statement “gravity exists” would be false.
I think we can know the word “fact” is meant to refer to something that exists as we use it in our language by considering proper and improper ways to use the word. Particularly relevant are two ways many people commonly use the word “fact” that are wrong:
One, some people talk about facts being true. However, facts are not true. Facts are what make statements true. The word “true” refers to statements that describe facts. This is one reason it is appropriate to say that facts exist and statements are true or false. Facts can’t be true or false.
Two, some people think that “facts” differ from “opinions” in that facts have been proven to be true. However, facts do not only refer to things we prove to be true. Consider how many people say that “evolution is just a theory” and others say “evolution is a fact.” These are not mutually exclusive because theories can describe facts.
There are facts whether or not anyone can prove they’re true. Facts do not generally depend on our beliefs or desires. They exist whether or not anyone thinks about them, proves they’re true, and so on. Gravity exists whether or not anyone knows about it, thinks about it, proves it, or believes it. Assuming it is true that “the cat is on the mat,” “1+1=2,” and “John has a headache,” these statements are true whether or not anyone knows about them, thinks about them, proves them, or believes them because they would describe facts that exist.
There are exceptions—some facts do depend on thoughts, beliefs, and proofs (to some extent). Those are facts about what people think, believe, or prove. It is a fact that many people believe that murder is immoral, it is a fact that many people have proven something to be true, and so on. However, these facts do not depend on any beliefs, thoughts, or arguments other than the ones that relate directly to the facts in question. For example, many people think that murder is immoral, even if I don’t know that they think that; and scientists have proven that gravity exists, even if we have not proven that they did so.
Once we realize that facts do not depend on our beliefs, desires, or arguments, we can realize how facts can be discovered—and how the discovery of facts indicates that they exist as part of reality outside of ourselves. Facts are not “made up” or delusions. Scientific facts are a good example. We know it’s a fact that gravity exists and we know the fact doesn’t just exist because we made it up or have some sort of delusion.
3. Do any facts exist?
Perhaps one more reason to think facts are supposed to exist (as we use the word in our language) is that we have some good reasons for thinking there are at least some facts that exist—some forms of realism are plausible. However, my main concern in this section is not that facts are supposed to refer to things that exist given how we talk about them. My concern is that I think it is plausible that at least some facts really do exist. Forms of realism include physical realism, scientific realism, mathematical realism, epistemic realism, and moral realism. I will discuss various forms of realism and explain why I think it’s plausible that physical facts exist in particular.
Physical realism – Physical realism states that there are physical facts. For example, it’s a fact that gravity exists, atoms exist, and an external world exists. There are physical anti-realists who deny that there are physical facts. They don’t think gravity really exists, that atoms really exist, or that an external world really exists. Some physical anti-realists are idealists who think that the world as we know it only exists in our minds—it’s something like a shared dream.
Scientific realism – Scientific realism is not concerned with physical realism—both scientific realists and anti-realists generally agree that it’s a fact that rocks exist. Scientific realism is about whether or not there are facts that certain unobservable entities exist, such as electrons or quarks. The effects of various phenomena are observed in science and scientific theories postulate various entities to explain those effects (such as electrons and quarks). The question is whether or not such unobservable entities really exist or not. Perhaps they are merely convenient fictions.
Mathematical realism – Mathematical realism states that there are mathematical facts, mathematics is not merely a “human invention,” and mathematical truths are not “true by definition.” Mathematics seems to defy language and require intuitive thought. Mathematical facts seem to exist no matter what we believe or prove. Most mathematical realists in contemporary philosophy are called “mathematical Platonists” and they believe that mathematical facts are “abstract entities” (similar to Plato’s forms)—they are timeless, nonphysical, and exist outside space and time.
Epistemic realism – Epistemic realism states that there are facts concerning justification and rationality. According to Epistemic realists, it’s a fact that believing that “1+1=3 is true just because your parents told you it’s true is irrational;” and it’s a fact that “it’s rational to believe that gravity exists because of our experience with falling objects.” Moreover, they agree that it’s a fact that “the belief that all men are mortal is justified” and that “the belief that fairies exist is unjustified.”
Moral realism – Moral realists agree that there are facts concerning what’s good or bad, what’s right or wrong, and what we ought or ought not do. They agree that it’s a fact that torturing children is morally wrong, that helping people is often morally right, and that we morally ought not kill other people every second of the day. Moral realists do not think morality depends on our beliefs and desires. Moral facts can be discovered and exist before we know about them.
There are many philosophers who endorse one or more type of realism, which is evidence that many philosophers agree that some facts exist, and I think all of the sorts of realism mentioned here are endorsed by some philosophers precisely because they are at least somewhat plausible given our understanding of the world. Additionally, I think that physical realism is plausible in particular.
Why physical realism is plausible.
Physical realism is plausible for at least two reasons:
First, science requires the assumption that physical realism is true. The world is not just part of my dream—it exists independently to my beliefs and desires. The laws of nature exist before I know about them and even if no one thinks about them at all. Scientists want to discover how the world is with the assumption that there are facts that exist whether or not we know about them. If there are no physical facts, then it is unclear what the heck scientists are doing and why they seem to be discovering things.
Second, the assumption of physical facts, such as the fact that an external world exists, seems necessary to explain our experiences of discovery and of a world of regularities that exists in a certain predictable way no matter what we believe or desire. If there is no external world, then we have no idea why we have the experiences that we do.
4. The objection against facts.
An objection to the belief that facts exist (and the assertion that no facts exist whatsoever) is that it violates Occam’s razor, but I think this objection is self-defeating. I will argue that any argument against the existence of facts is self-defeating, and that’s just one more reason for us to believe at least some facts exist.
The objection against facts that I will discuss is that the existence of facts violates Occam’s razor—it multiplies entities beyond necessity. If it’s a fact that a cat is on the mat, then there are even more things that exist. One, a cat. Two, a mat. Three, the fact that a cat and a mat exists and relate in a certain way. Perhaps it would be simpler (and more reasonable) to dispense with facts altogether and just say there’s a cat on a mat.
My reply
First, in order to know if the existence of facts violates Occam’s razor, we need to know what it means for them to be “beyond necessity.” If two theories (or explanations) are equal in all respects except one theory is more complex, then we should prefer the simpler one. Consider the theory that “gravity exists” and a competing theory that “gravity exists and fairies exist.” In this case both theories equally explain my experiences of falling objects, but the theory that “gravity exists and fairies exist” should be rejected because it’s needlessly multiplies entities for absolutely no reason—it’s exactly like the simpler theory except it says fairies exist for no reason.
Even so, it is usually not that easy to decide when Occam’s razor is violated because there can be good things about a theory that might still violate Occam’s razor. For example, many versions of string theory were popular and some postulated more dimensions than others, but it wasn’t clear which version of string theory was best.
Moreover, some philosophers think Occam’s razor is a good reason to reject certain theories even if it’s the best possible explanation available. For example, some philosophers might prefer to have no theory concerning what mathematics is about rather than accept mathematical Platonism because they don’t think it’s plausible that “abstract entities” exist.
The question is whether or not the belief that “facts exist” is more complex than an alternative perspective without a good reason for being more complex. Is there a simpler theory that explains our experiences just as well? Consider the theory that we can talk about reality without any facts existing. This theory would confuse what it means to say “facts exist” because the existence of facts is the existence of some sort of reality. Without facts, there is no reality being referred to. Therefore, it doesn’t make sense to say that “there is a cat on a mat, but it’s not a fact that a cat is on the mat.”
It is far from obvious that the belief that “facts exist” violates Occam’s razor because there is no plausible alternative it competes with (that we currently know about). We don’t know of a simpler and more reasonable alternative to the belief that “facts exist.” There might be an alternative like that, but if so, it’s an alternative that no one seems to know about at this point of time.
Second, I think there is a good reason to think that the belief that “facts exist” doesn’t multiply entities in the way stated above at all. To say the true statement, “gravity exists,” is to automatically describe a fact. To say that “it’s a fact that gravity exists” means something like “the statement ‘gravity exists’ is true because of some relation to reality.” Facts are part of reality—whatever it is. Facts are not separate from reality. Therefore, facts seem to exist in a reductive way similar to saying that “sandwiches exist.” The word “sandwiches” refers to various potential configurations of particles and nothing more. If those configurations of particles exist, then sandwiches exist. The fact that sandwiches are configuration of particles does not mean that sandwiches don’t really exist and only configurations of particles exist. Additionally saying sandwiches exist doesn’t mean two different things exist for every sandwich—both a sandwich and a configuration of particles.
In a similar way I suggest that when we say that “it’s a fact that a cat is on the mat,” we’re not saying “it’s a fact that a cat is on the mat and the cat is on the mat.” We are merely saying one thing about reality and there are multiple ways to describe that reality.
Third, the objection is self-defeating because any good argument will require potentially true premises, but no statements can be true if facts don’t exist (perhaps other than the statement that facts don’t exist). Good arguments require us to have plausible premises and a plausible conclusion—we need to believe that the premises are true in order to believe that the conclusion is true. The objection requires us to believe that it’s true that “believing ‘facts exist’ violates Occam’s razor” and it requires us to believe the conclusion is true (that facts don’t exist). Perhaps the conclusion would be true if facts don’t exist, but the premise can’t be. Therefore, the objection is self-defeating.
Finally, any objection to the existence of facts would be self-defeating in this way—they can’t be good arguments if facts don’t exist. The fact that all such arguments are self-defeating gives us a good reason to agree that at least some facts do exist. At least it could be consistent with our ability to produce good arguments. An anti-realist who rejects all facts could reject argumentation entirely, but such a person would no longer have the ability to be reasonable.
Conclusion
The word “fact” is meant to refer to something that exists. Moreover, it is not only reasonable to believe that facts exist, but arguments that facts exist seem much more reasonable than arguments that conclude that no facts exist. Finally, there might be an alternative view to the view that at least some facts exist, but it’s not clear what that view is. Until then we can’t consistently argue that no facts exist, and it seems like we have to believe that facts exist to consistently believe that it’s possible to give good arguments (for any belief whatsoever).
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Filed under: epistemology, metaphysics, philosophy Tagged: facts, knowledge, occam's razor, ontology










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