Archive for the 'Uncategorized' Category

Frank Turek’s Case For God

In my essay Why I Am Not A Christian, I outlined six types of arguments for God’s existence, cosmological, teleological, ontological, moral, historical and transcendental. In the “Does God Exist?” category on his website, Mr. Frank Turek uses two of them: the first and the last. At this point it would not, I am sorry to say, be beneath my dignity to make a little joke about Frank seeing himself as the Alpha and the Omega — but my ordering of the argument types is pretty much arbitrary, so it wouldn’t be a very good joke. Oh well, there are many others.[1]

In the cosmological category, Frank cited the “Law of Causality,” which is an authoritative-sounding title for the first premise of the Kalam Cosmological Argument: whatever begins to exist has a cause. But what sort of “law” is the “Law of Causality?” It cannot be a law of logic, for there is no logical contradiction entailed in something beginning to exist uncaused, so it must be a law of physics.

However, during the first ten to the minus forty three seconds of the universe — what cosmologists called the Planck Era — the universe was in a state of supersymmetry, wherein no physical laws obtained. They all “evolved” later in the universe’s development, when the symmetry broke. Therefore, even if the “Law of Causality” really did exist, it could not apply in the one place that Frank needs it to apply in order for the argument to work: the Big Bang!

As for the universe beginning to exist, Frank is a decade or two behind the times. Cosmologists now have evidence that the universe began existence as a “bubble” that formed out of a pre-existing substrate, one of an infinite number, most likely.[2] Frank’s cute little SURGE acronym refers to evidence that only applies to the VISIBLE universe — the universe we can observe, the one that came out of the Big Bang. We have no, or almost no, information about the Big Bang itself or what conditions were like beforehand, but we do know that there was SOMETHING beforehand. Frank may think otherwise, but his “doctorate” is not in any physical science, nor has he published any peer-reviewed work in the scientific literature, so his opinion on the matter cannot supercede those of actual scientists.

(Frank also cites the Kalam argument itself as evidence that the universe began to exist; I can only assume he’s referring to Craig’s attempts at proving that actual infinities cannot exist. These proofs all fail for the same reason: infinities do not obey the rules of finite mathematics.)

In the transcendental category, Frank shoots himself in the foot in a most amusing way: he states that any good worldview must be able to explain, among other things, the origin of the laws of logic themselves (and abstract objects which are derived from them, such as mathematics and objective morals). But what is Frank’s answer to this question? As he does NOT state in that post, but rather states in a discussion long after that post was written, his position is that the laws of logic are a part of God himself, and a necessary one — they did not come about as an act of God’s volition, but rather are part of his “unchanging nature.”

And what is the origin of God? He doesn’t have one, he doesn’t need one. Frank’s position, then, is tatamount to saying that logic itself neither has nor needs an origin — the same thing he accuses atheists of saying!

But for Frank, it gets even worse: his position does not allow for change. Unlike scientists, Frank cannot alter his theory based on new evidence; he is comitted, both dogmatically and metaphysically, to the position that logic comes from God — i.e. has no explanation. Even if that were true of atheism, we at least have the hope of altering our position in the future as new evidence becomes available; Frank, not being able to see the future, cannot say that no such evidence would ever appear. So the explanatory power of an atheistic worldview averages around good, and tends toward improvement. The explanatory power of Frank’s worldview, however, is zero and will always remain so.

It is obvious, then, that Frank has no evidence that is even marginally good, still less compelling, for the existence of God. However, it is possible that I have misconstrued his position, or missed a line of evidence he offered elsewhere on his site. If that is the case, I invite Frank to post on this site to set the record straight. (Unlike on his own site, Frank can be sure that the administrator of this site will not delete posts that happen to make good points.)

[1] You’ve probably noticed that in the very first paragraph of this scholarly-appearing essay, I insulted Frank twice: first when I called him Mister when he in fact possesses a doctorate in Christian Apologetics, second when I insinuated that many jokes could be made at his expense. The first is not intended as disrespect to Frank, but rather is intended to avoid disrespecting those who have earned doctorates in legitimate fields of study. The existence of “diploma mills” where anyone can get a piece of paper proclaiming them a doctor with minimal effort, or even a mere financial contribution, is a source of great chagrin to such people, and I have no intention of adding to their woes. For the second, however, I have no excuse. Neither does Frank, however, whose very first post in this category called atheism a fundamentalist religion — a linguistic impossibility, offered for the sole purpose of attempting to drag atheism down to Christianity’s level. Frank himself admits as much in this post.

[2] Cf. Michio Kaku, “Parallel Worlds” (2005). This also answers the teleological, or “design,” argument — given an infinity of universes arising from the quantum foam, we would need a very good explanation indeed if we DIDN’T find life in some of them!

Flight of the Conchords


. . . is the shiznit. My girlfriend just introduced me to this sitcom featuring the adventures of the eponymous New Zealand musical comedy duo in New York. Great supporting cast, hilarious songs, dead-on David Bowie impersonations and lashings of NZ inferiority complex.

“If You’re Into It”

“Foux Da Fa Fa”

“Business Time”

“Hiphopopotamus vs. Rhymenoceros”

How to Appeal to the Kids

I have to hand it to New York - no matter how amoral, sex-crazed, greedy, and secular this town gets, it still allows us to be daily exposed to the moral and intellecual salvations offered by religion.

Usually in the subway stations.

The other day, for example, I spotted some assholes who’d set up a table in Grand Central. They had signs telling us that we were sinners and that Jesus would save us, and they had piles of free literature.

Now, I’m a starving student, and i’m not going to turn down an opportunity to pick up kindling while depleting the propaganda supplies. I took copies of their thickest books - tonight I’m starting work on some crap about “living waters” - thanked the guy who was handing them out, and began to walk away.

“Hey, kid!” he shouted (I’m 21, I had a briefcase, and I was headed to a job interview, thanks). He held out a CHICK tract, his eyes glimmering like the host of a Saturday morning cartoon marathon. “You should take this one instead! It’s got pictures in it. You know - like those comic books you read!”

Maybe that’s why I never liked the Bible - not enough pictures

Found Documents: Islam and Free Speech in Canada

This is a long quote from a web page belonging to the Canadian Society of Muslims (CSM). The CSM was instrumental in the Sharia law putsch a few years back. This is their view on the limits of free speech, blasphemy and apostasy in Canada. For the impatient here is the précis: The entire global [...]

High School Freethinkers, Come Out!


Imagine you’re reading your feeds, when you see a blog post about you. I’ve recently been seeing blog posts about me pop up all over the place, most recently from BadAstronomy.

From what I can tell, it’s mostly because I’m a teenage freethinker. Now, I am quite flattered and all, and I can understand why people find this such a remarkable phenomenon, but I know that I’m not the only one out there. Right?

I don’t hear crickets… oh. There they are now.

Just kidding. I know you’re out there. Maybe you run a blog just like me. Maybe you’re not outspoken because of anti-intellectual peer pressure. So… I’m ripping off of the Out Campaign and making a “Scarlet F” because I thought that that would be amusing.


Now, if you are a high school freethinker/skeptic/atheist/intellectual/all-around-cool-person (or know of one), I want to know about you. Leave a comment here, or send me an e-mail. If you have a blog or website, I’d be happy to give you linkage. I’m thinking of maybe doing a special section in my blog with links to high school freethinkers or something so that we can exchange ideas with each other, help each other out, be friends, have fun, etc.

In the meantime, check out the Center for Inquiry Campus Outreach site.

Cross Examined, Rejected

This is a summing-up of my recent experiences on the Christian apologetics website crossexamined.org. The site is run by Frank Turek, who is a Christian apologist and has the doctorate to prove it. That’s right, the doctorate! I’ll bet you didn’t know that there are institutions of “higher learning” that offer doctoral programs in Christian Apologetics. Based on the quality of his arguments, however, I take Frank’s “Doctor” title about as seriously as I do that of two of his fellow apologists, “Doctor” Jason Gastrich (resident of California, honorary doctorate from a university he gave lots of money to), and “Doctor” Kent Hovind (resident of the federal prison system, doctorate from a split-level house in Colorado — I’m not kidding).

Frank believes that young people walking away from the faith is a big problem in America; his solution is to run “dynamic” campus events called “I Don’t Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist” where he delivers the sort of inane, often-refuted apologetics the sheer stupidity of which drove many, many Christians to atheism in the first place. He also has a weekly TV show with the same name, on a tiny Christian network on DirectTV, in which he presumably delivers the same thing to his viewers — all three of them.

Neil Mammen is, as far as I can tell, just some guy whom Frank lets post on his site.

What follows is a summary of the conversations I had at Frank’s website over the last week with Frank and Neil, as well as two other Christians, James and Ernie, and an atheist, db0. This is obviously a paraphrasing which comes from one point of view, but I have, and can provide upon request, copies of the website before and after the modifications and deletions detailed below (all but the first one, before which I didn’t think that saving copies would be necessary). They will confirm the substantive truth of what you are about to read.

NEIL: What would atheists do if they found out God existed?

DAVE: You mean when we die? Your theology suggests it will make no difference, so I think you’re just asking to frighten us.

WEBSITE: Your post is awaiting moderation.

DAVE: Moderation? Well, we’ll see if it gets published.

NEIL: *publishes it* Hi, Dave! Hey, look at us, we publish atheists’ comments here!

DAVE: Excellent! And in response to what I said?

NEIL: Puh-shaw!

FRANK: Hi, Dave! Atheists can’t explain logic and reason in a material universe!

DAVE: Atheism isn’t committed to materialism.

FRANK: But if God didn’t exist, then logic wouldn’t exist.

DAVE: So you’re saying logic is contingent upon God?

FRANK: No, I’m saying logic is based on God.

NEIL: See, atheists, at least our worldview is self-consistent.

DAVE: So? Any worldview can be made self-consistent by adding or subtracting propositions. Take, for instance, the problem of suffering–

NEIL: Ooh, evil? We love talking about evil here!

DAVE: I said suffering, not evil.

NEIL: Great! Let’s talk about evil! Ready, go!

ERNIE: The problem of evil fails because God allows free will.

DAVE: The free will defense fails because under A-type free will, God is impossible, and under B-type free will, God could, if he existed, bring about a world with free will and without suffering.

JAMES: I don’t like A-type free will.

DAVE: Fine.

ERNIE: Yeah, B-type free will is better.

DAVE: Okay.

JAMES: No, really, A-type stinks.

DAVE: I already said that’s fine.

JAMES: Dude, seriously, B-type all the way.

DAVE: I said fine!

NEIL: Dave, James is right. B-type free will obtains.

DAVE: Fine! B-type is fine! Fine!

FRANK: Also, atheists have no explanation for logic and reason in a material universe!

DAVE: Frank, I already said that atheism isn’t committed to materialism — but if you want a materialistic explanation, fine, abstract objects are emergent properties of physical systems. Neil, what’s your response to my argument?

NEIL: What was your argument again? I haven’t read it.

DB0: Shouldn’t you read the argument first?

NEIL: *deletes DB0’s post* Well, Dave?

DAVE: My argument here is that if God existed, he could bring about a world without suffering.

NEIL: No he couldn’t!

DAVE: Why not?

NEIL: Because that would interfere with A-type free will!

DAVE: But you said . . . wait a moment, didn’t DB0 have a post up there?

NEIL: I decided it was off-topic, so I deleted it. *deletes Dave’s post*

DAVE: Excuse me, but if atheists’ posts are going to be arbitrarily deleted here, then I won’t participate.

NEIL: *changes “deleted” to “moderated” in his post above* What’s that, Dave? You don’t like moderation? But you knew it was moderated! Oh well, buh-bye! As I was saying, God can’t negate both evil and free will. We win!

FRANK: Plus, atheists have no explanation for logic and reason in a material universe!

DAVE: Sigh. Fine, I’ll respond on my own website. Here are the links.

FRANK: *deletes Dave’s post*

DAVE: Huh? Let’s try that again.

FRANK: *deletes Dave’s post* Oh, didn’t I tell you? We don’t allow “advertising” of atheist sites.

DAVE: Wait a sec–

FRANK: *deletes Dave’s post* Atheists have no explanation for logic and reason in a material universe!

Christopher Hitchens, on ‘Does Science make belief in God obsolete?’

No, but it should. Until about 1832, when it first seems to have become established as a noun and a concept, the term “scientist” had no really independent meaning. “Science” meant “knowledge” in much the same way as “physic” meant medicine, and those who conducted experiments or organized field expeditions or managed laboratories were known as [...]

Professor Victor J. Stenger, on ‘Does Science make belief in God obsolete?’

Yes. Once upon a time there were a number of strong scientific arguments for the existence of God. One of the oldest and most prevalent is the argument from design. Most people look at the complexity of the world and cannot conceive of how it could have come about except by the action of a being [...]

Professor Robert Sapolsky, on ‘Does Science make belief in God obsolete?’

No. Despite the fact that I’m an atheist, I recognize that belief offers something that science does not. Science isn’t remotely about a scientist announcing truths or The Truth. It’s about stating things with a certain degree of certainty. A scientist will say, “In this experiment, I observed that A causes B; it didn’t happen every single [...]

William D. Phillips, a Nobel Laureate in physics, on ‘Does Science make belief in God obsolete?’

Absolutely not! Now that we have scientific explanations for the natural phenomena that mystified our ancestors, many scientists and non-scientists believe that we no longer need to appeal to a supernatural God for explanations of anything, thereby making God obsolete. As for people of faith, many of them believe that science, by offering such explanations, opposes [...]

Cardinal Schönborn, the Archbishop of Vienna, on ‘Does Science make belief in God obsolete?’

No, and yes. No, as a matter of reason and truth. The knowledge we have gained through modern science makes belief in an Intelligence behind the cosmos more reasonable than ever. Yes, as a matter of mood, sensibility, and sentiment. Not science itself but a reductive “scientific mentality” that often accompanies it, along with the power, control, [...]

Carl Sagan, on ‘Does Science make belief in God obsolete?’

Yes, if by… “Science” we mean the entire enterprise of secular reason and knowledge (including history and philosophy), not just people with test tubes and white lab coats. Traditionally, a belief in God was attractive because it promised to explain the deepest puzzles about origins. Where did the world come from? What is the basis of life? [...]

Let’s Start With Existence, and Go From There.

A response to Neil Mammen:

Imagine that a God existed, what characteristics would you require of him before you accepted him as your God and what behavioral change if any would that cause in you? E.g.

1. He would be more obvious about revealing himself (this I think is a given).
2. He would not send anyone to hell just for not believing he didn’t exist.
3. He would not allow suffering or evil.
4. He would punish bad folks like Hitler or hypocritical Christians with a bolt of lightning on the spot.
5. He would not require anyone to glorify or worship him.
6. He would not have any rules or regulations that we would have to follow. etc.

So what characteristics would you require before you accepted him as your God. If the answer is None, that’s a valid answer too, especially if you say why.

Neil Peart, an agnostic who is best known as the drummer and lyricist of the Canadian rock band Rush, probably said it best: He said that he would accept a God if and only if you demonstrated to him that (1) he exists, (2) he is as described by your religion, and (3) he is worthy of worship.

It really is that simple, and reflecting on that in conjunction with your writings has allowed me to put my finger on what the basic problem is: you’re essentially trying to accomplish step three, when you haven’t even gotten past step one.

Hitchens on the art of the possible

One of my new favourite quotes: I’ve never been impressed by middle ground, or compromising, or art-of-the-possible stuff. Why would people bother with politics if that’s all they wanted to do? If you weren’t trying so see if you could expand the art of the possible at least, break the limits of the feasible, redefine them, [...]

Happy Birthday, Mike!

Hey everyone, SexySecularist poster Mike has survived another year of life. In fact, he’s survived 21 years of life (and you know what that means). Wish the man a happy birthday!

Matt Taibbi Ventures Into the Frightening World of Hagee’s “Encounter Weekend”


I’ve finally gotten around to reading the excerpt published from Matt Taibbi’s new book, The Great Derangement, documenting his infiltration of Pastor John Hagee’s Cornerstone Church and his experience at one of the church’s Evangelical “Encounter Weekends.” The entire story really is a terrifying look at the massive, orchestrated con job that is megachurch evangelical Christianity.

I pulled into the church parking lot a little after 6:00 p.m., at more or less the last possible minute. The previous half hour or so I’d spent dawdling in my car outside a Goodwill department store off Route 410 in San Antonio, clinging to some inane sports talk show piping over my car radio — anything to hold off my plunge into Religion.

There was an old-fashioned white school bus in front of the church entrance, with a puddle of heavyset people milling around its swinging door. Some of these were carrying blankets and sleeping bags. My heart, already pounding, skipped a few extra beats. The church circulars had said nothing about bringing bedding. Why did I need bedding? What else had I missed?

“Excuse me,” I said, walking up to an in-charge-looking man with a name tag who was standing near the front of the bus. “I see everyone has blankets. I didn’t bring any. Is this going to be a problem?”

The man was about five feet one and had glassy eyes. He looked up at me and smiled queerly.

“Name?” he said.

“Collins,” I said. “Matthew Collins.”

He scanned his clipboard, found my name on the appropriate sheet of paper, and X-ed me out with a highlighter. “Don’t worry, Matthew,” he said, resting his hand on my shoulder. “A wonderful woman named Martha is going to take care of you at the ranch. You just tell her what you need when you get there.”

I nodded, glancing at his hand, which was still on my shoulder. He waved me into the bus.

I had been attending the Cornerstone Church for weeks, but this was really my first day of school. I had joined Cornerstone — a megachurch in the Texas Hill Country — to get a look inside the evangelical mind-set that gave the country eight years of George W. Bush. The church’s pastor, John Hagee, is one of the most influential evangelical preachers in the country — not because his ministry is so very large (although he claims up to 4.5 million viewers a week for his Sunday sermons) but because of his near-absolute conquest of a very trendy niche in the market: Christian Zionism.

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New Fangled Calculator


I totally need to get one of these. Hell, if he can build one that can solve linear systems of differential equations I’ll have to get one airmailed here by Thursday.


(via Greg Laden)

Omnipotence and Suffering

A response to Neil Mammen:

NEIL:
The Bible is quiet clear about this. It says He cannot sin. He cannot cease to exist. He cannot be unjust. So we see there are things that God cannot do.

Don’t forget the iron chariots (Judges 1:19).

I’m happy to concede that the Bible says that God cannot do all of this things. But it also says that he is omnipotent (Rev. 19:6), that he can do everything (Job 42:2), that everything is possible for him (Matt. 19:26), that nothing is impossible for him (Luke 1:37), and that nothing is too hard for him to do (Gen. 18:14). So all you’ve done here is point out that God has contradictory attributes, and therefore logically cannot exist.

Isn’t your foot getting tired of you shooting it so much?

The problem of suffering deals strictly with a God who is all-powerful. If you want to say that God does not have the power to do some things, then you are saying that God is not all-powerful, which is the same as saying that an all-powerful God does not exist, which is exactly what the atheists are saying. Shall I send you an EAC membership card, Neil?

NEIL:
Omnipotence means all powerful. Omnipotent does NOT mean all capable. This is a common confusion.

God IS omnipotent (all powerful) but he is not omni-able (i.e. able to do “any”thing at least not anything irrational as we’ve discussed). The definition of Omnipotence i.e. all powerful should not be confused with “capability” when it comes to the Christian God. There’s a clear distinction between the two.

Thinking Christians believe that God is all powerful, not all capable, especially when it comes to being able to do irrational things.

Having the power to do something and being capable of doing that thing describe the same state of affairs, and in terms of omnipotence the two words are often used interchangeably. If by arbitrarily attempting to redefine the latter word you simply mean to limit God’s omnipotence to being unable to do “the irrational,” then first of all, stop fucking around with accepted lexicography, and second of all, your argument hinges on what you mean by “the irrational.”

If you mean “the logically impossible,” then you’re perfectly correct. If you mean anything else, then you’re perfectly incorrect. Omnipotence means being able to bring about any logically possible state of affairs. (Well, technically, it means any state of affairs, regardless of logical possibility — but theologians have long since given up on being able to salvage the concept of God being able to do the logically impossible, and we’re happy to accept that particular concession.)

NEIL:
It is not possible for God to create or actualize a universe where everybody has the freewill to choose to obey God without them ACTUALLY having the freewill to chose to disobey God.

Such a universe is logically possible; therefore God would have the power to actualize it.

NEIL:
It is illogical and irrational to think that a universe could be actualized where everyone HAD the freewill to do evil or cause suffering and no one did so. This is not a limitation of the power of God, but a limitation of logic and rationality. Why? Because any attempt to force anyone to not exercise their freewill would be a removal of their freewill.

If you define free will as A-type, then you’re right — but it doesn’t matter, since free will would be logically impossible. If you define free will as B-type, then you’re wrong, because logical preclusion only negates A-type free will, not B-type free will.

NEIL:
A universe where everyone had the freewill to cause suffering but didn’t may not be not actually possible. For one what is the difference between that universe and a universe where nobody had the freewill to cause suffering.

In the former, people have free will. In the latter, they don’t.

NEIL:
Ah but you say in our universe some people have the freewill to cause suffering and they don’t. To whit I say show me one person who never caused any suffering even if they died seconds after they were born.

Show me a 10-second-old baby who has the ability to make any sort of conscious decision at all!

If you’re referring to the baby inadvertently causing suffering, then free will isn’t involved and you’ve removed this objection from the context of the free will defense. But the point is that it is logically possible that the baby never causes suffering, even if the baby lives to be an old person.

NEIL:
Frank had a great observation: Just because something is logically possible does not mean that it is actually possible. His example is that it is logically possible for you an atheist to become a Christian (after all Anthony Flew became a deist), but you may not.

Something not being “actually possible,” in the sense Frank is using, is just another way of saying “it ain’t gonna happen in a million, trillion years.” Neither that nor anything else you could say negates its logical possibility.

NEIL:
It would seem to me that the only way you can “blame” God unfairly for suffering or evil or natural disasters would be to ask for one or more of the following: (there follows a list of bizzare suggestions)

I am not in the habit of asking anything from entities that don’t exist. Nor am I suggesting a particular world; if God existed, he would have, literally, an infinite number of worlds to choose from. I am saying that if God existed then he would actualize a world without suffering.

This would be compatible with any other desire that God might have, except one: the presence of suffering. That is the only thing that is logically incompatible with the absence of suffering. If God desired the presence of suffering for its own sake, he would not be all-loving, thus an all-loving God would not exist — which is the point of the argument anyway.

NEIL:
God knowing that there is no possible worlds where freewill is possible where no one actually commits evil or causes suffering (…)

The only way that God could know that there are no logically possible worlds containing a particular situation is if that situation was logically impossible. The situation of everyone having free will and not causing suffering is not logically impossible. Hence it is logically possible, and therefore it describes a logically possible world (or, to be more accurate, an infinite set of logically possible worlds. Why infinite? Because the number of positive integers is infinite, and so is the number of odd integers, even integers, prime numbers, et cetera).

To say “The argument from suffering is unscathed in spite of Neil’s post” is a bit like saying “Well what do you know, all all that air around the planet is still here!”

Every Sperm is Sacred! Mrs. Duggar’s up the stump (again).


With her eighteenth! Holy (repeated) fuck!

41 year old Michelle Duggar, baby factory delux, has another bun in the oven. One wonders if Michelle with her, shall we say, rabbit-habit, even go into labour anymore, or do the sprogs just drop out when she does the dishes?

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. - It’s a happy Mother’s Day for an Arkansas woman — she’s pregnant with her 18th child. Michelle Duggar, 41, is due on New Year’s Day, and the latest addition will join seven sisters and 10 brothers. There are two sets of twins. …

The Duggars’ oldest child, Josh, is 20, and the youngest, Jennifer, is nine months old.

The fast-growing family lives in Tontitown in northwest Arkansas in a 7,000-square-foot home. All the children — whose names start with the letter J — are home-schooled.

Duggar has been been pregnant for more than 11 years of her life, and the family is in the process of filming another series for Discovery Health.

The new show looks at life inside the Duggar home, where chores — or “jurisdictions” — are assigned to each child. One episode of the new show involves a “jurisdiction swap,” where the boys do chores traditionally assigned to the girls, and vice versa, Duggar said.

Well, I suppose if they can afford it, who can complain, but then again, this is the internet, and so why not? OK, so its a TV and internet spectacle. That won’t harm the kids. Being gawked at by millions while you are growing up and having a million of fundamentalist Christians live their vicarious “family values” through you really is the way to live out your nervous teenage rebellious years.

If they want to make spectacles of their kids, why not have a laugh? Perhaps they are not fundamentalist protestants after all. They sound like Roman Catholics (at least according to Monty Python).

Good thing SHUFFL proposed a well fitting religious bra for her some time ago!

What is funny, however, is that their old, very Christian, website that I linked to in the bra post (http://www.duggarfamily.com/) that had this to say:

“God has opened many doors for them to share that children are a blessing from the Lord! They have been featured on four Discovery Health / TLC documentaries entitled,“14 Children and Pregnant Again!”, “16 Children and Moving In!”, “Raising 16 Children!” & “On The Road With 16 Children!”. … The Duggar’s desire is to make Christ known and for others to see that the Bible is the owner’s manual for life.”

now simply redirects to the Discovery Heath site linked to above, and it really hasn’t got much to say about God at all! Hmmm. I guess they figured that Christ everyone has already been made known to everyone and that most folk already has picked up a copy of life’s manual, and so now they can just be a spectacle for a commercial media empire with a clean conscious! Isn’t God great?

Continuing the “God is Logic” Discussion

As I’ve stated in the post below, I have left the “Cross Examined” site but will be continuing my part in the discussions here, so as not to be 1984ed. Frank and the others may participate here, or at CE, or not at all, as they choose.

FRANK:
Saying that God’s nature and logic are unchangable, congruent and simultaneous does not mean that God is ontologically dependent on logic. I suppose you could say that if God did not exist than neither would logic because his nature is the grounding of logic. You could say the same about justice. But that is exactly the point I’m making. Logic or Justice (morality) does not exist unless God exists.

DAVE:
By saying ~G -> ~L (if no god, then no logic), you are making logic contingent upon God. And once again we’re back to where we started: human discourse presupposes the nonexistence of any entity which is defined as being an entity upon which logic is contingent.

Let me put it YET ANOTHER way: the only way that logic could be both necessarily existing and by definition a part of God would be if God himself were necessarily existing. The only way to show that God is necessarily existing would be to produce a sound ontological argument for God’s existence. Having studied analytical philosophy of religion my entire adult life, I can state with much confidence that no such argument exists. So there’s no rational way for you to maintain that logic presupposes, or is evidence for, God’s existence.

Continuing the Free Will Discussion

Although I have withdrawn from the “Cross Examined” site (see comments from two posts ago, as well as forthcoming post), I will continue to respond to the philosophical arguments and responses (such as they are) made on that site as they come to my attention — I’ll just do so here, where at least I can be certain of not being 1984ed. Neil and the others can continue their part in the discussion here, or on CE, or not at all, as they choose.

NEIL:
I’d like to see an example of how you think God CAN allow people to have freewill to cause suffering to others but can also control them such that they do not have the freewill to cause others to suffer?

DAVE:
Simple. God would simply actualize the world in which people freely make decisions that do not lead to suffering, thus eliminating the logical possibility that they will not make such choices. This is not compatible with A-type free will, but it is with B-type free will.

Ignunt Fool of the Week


Finally, the elusive question is answered… What delicacy do they eat in the Pleiades sector?

Tapioca.

So say people who believe that some of their ancestors came from the Pleiades sector.

It’s really depressing to me because I myself am an avid fan of Stargate and I hate to see the show that I love abused in this way… of course… Stargate does have a lot of New Age tosh now and I haven’t been able to watch it in a while for that reason.

Anyway, these people are not alone in thinking that one of their ancestors did it with an alien. There are loads of lunatics out there who believe that they are “star children”, or humans who think they have alien DNA.

But anyway, I would not like to show that it is competely impossible for anybody to be a star child.

In biology, a population of animals becomes defined as a species when they don’t interbreed with other species and produce fertile offspring. That’s here on Earth where everything has a common ancestor. Let’s humour the star children for a little bit and say that life evolved elsewhere (fairly possible for now), has DNA just like ours (more far-fetched), found a means of interstellar travel (progressively getting more far-fetched but there are ways)… What are the chances that their DNA is so similar that they can produce fertile offspring?

Eating tapioca in their sector doesn’t sound so far-fetched anymore.

The power of 2000 years of uncritical thought…



Got it from Saturday Morning Breakfast.

It never ceases to amaze me how hyper-intellectualized theologiwaffle is, and for all the big words, bigger books and incessant bleatings about its continued relevance, it never really comes to terms with the obvious, it is based on the scribblings of a bunch of 2000 year old nobodies, who thought that their place in the universe depended on splattering sheep innards on an altar…

The Free Will Defense Shattered

This post is the result of my recent experiences at the blog at the Christian apologetics website crossexamined.org, about which I’ll be posting more later. This arguement is hardly a new one, but it hasn’t received much attention in the blogosphere, probably because it’s fairly technical — the folks at CE are still scratching their heads about it.

In order to explain why the free will defense fails, we have to distinguish between two types of free will, call them A-type and B-type.

Let’s say that person P must, at time t, choose between either decision D or decision ~D (not-D). Under A-type free will, P has free will if and only if it is logically possible for P to either choose D or choose ~D at time t — that is, if his choice was not logically determined. (Note that logical determination is not the same thing as physical determination.)

Under B-type free will, that is not the case; P can have free will to choose either D or ~D at time t even if logical determinism applies.

If God exists, then God, being all-knowing, knows that P will choose (let us say) D at time t, and this knowledge is infallible. Thus, it is necessarily true that P chooses D, and necessarily false that P chooses ~D. Now, under B-type free will, this doesn’t matter at all — P was still free in choosing D. But under A-type free will, P was not free in choosing D, by virtue of the fact that it was logically impossible for him to choose ~D.

The free will defender states that God cannot actualize a state of affairs wherein P would freely choose D at time t, because if God actualizes a state of affairs wherein P chooses D at time t, then P’s choice was not a free will decision.

The question is, which type of free will is the defender referring to, A-type or B-type?

If the defender is referring to A-type free will, then the defender is correct, God cannot make P freely choose D. In fact, God cannot make, or even allow, anyone to freely choose at all. A-type free will is impossible if God exists, because it is logically impossible for anyone to do anything other than what God already knows he will do. And, by modus tolens, if A-type free will exists, then God does not.

“Ah,” I hear you say, “but God didn’t cause that person to do what he did; even though he knew it would happen, that person was still free to make that choice or not.”

In that case, you’re referring to B-type free will, wherein P is free to choose D in spite of God already knowing that he would do so.

But that means that P is also free to choose ~D in spite of God already knowing that he would do so; God would simply have that knowledge instead. So, antecedent to God having knowledge that P would choose D or that P would choose ~D, there is a possible world in which P freely chooses D (call it W1) and a possible world in which P freely chooses ~D (call it W2). God, being all-powerful, can actualize either of those worlds, and he would know which is which.

“Wait a minute,” you might retort. “that means that P is not free, because God, in choosing either W1 or W2, determined whether he would choose D or ~D.”

Granted, God made it logically impossible for P to choose other than what God knew P would choose in the world that God actualized. But other than having been logically determined, P’s decision was uncoerced. So if it is your position that P nonetheless does not have free will, then you’ve gone back to A-type free will. See above.

So therein lies the dilemma. It doesn’t really matter whether you choose A-type or B-type free will, but you must choose one or the other, and whatever choice you make, you’re stuck with it. You can’t switch back and forth.

If you choose A-type, then the free will defense fails because free will and God are logically incompatible; if one exists, the other does not. If you choose B-type, then the free will defense fails because there is a set of possible worlds in which all choices are freely made and suffering nonetheless does not exist, and God, if he existed and desired free will, would actualize one of those worlds.

Whatever your choice, the free will defense fails.

(Note: although I’ve tagged this post with “evil,” it really should be tagged with “suffering,” as this particular atheological argument concerns suffering and not moral evil per se. But I didn’t feel like adding “suffering” to my already-overcrowded tag cloud. So sue me.)

Canadian cartoonist being sued by Muslims

I know, how ‘unexpected’: Police in Halifax are investigating a complaint about a political cartoon that some members of a local Islamic group claim is a hate crime. The cartoon, published April 18 in the Chronicle Herald newspaper, depicts a woman in a burka holding a sign that reads, “I want millions,” and she says, “I can [...]

Go looking for light entertainment, expect trouble. Caveat and correction.


I’ve just been aware that I’ve made the (perhaps inevitable) error of presenting a hoax fundie site / organisation as a real one. The site/org in question is Objective Ministries.

I did do a little checking around to see if it was a hoax, but clearly not enough. The museum of hoaxes entry has been helpful in revealing the truth, although many of the tell-tale signs of the hoax mentioned are gone.

So before I go on with the caveat of why the stuff up isn’t as bad as all that, and why I did stuff up, let me first apologise for getting it wrong. Sorry.

My first contact with the site was a couple of years ago and was by way of an argument on a Newsgroup (or a discussion list - I was subscribed to a few at the time), where genuine, known apologists (i.e. known not to be hoaxers) had posted material from Objective Ministries as source material; i.e. the fundamentalist theists I was in debate with treated the hoax material as genuine.

This is my main reason for lowering my guard when checking if Objective Ministries was a hoax. A bad mistake considering I generally don’t trust everything I read on the net, especially from people with a track record of dissembling (which said theists had).

One does however, given the rather faithful nature of the hoax, have to consider how misleading my treatment of it was. If apologists can see it as genuine, then it can’t be entirely unrepresentative can it?

The “arguments” (or rather memes) posted on the site (”this is a Christian country” and dino-science) are repeated elsewhere in the culture wars (for example, in Australia’s History Wars and in the works of Kent Hovind the memes are respectively employed). It’s no wonder fundies would refer to it as a source.

In any case, my treatment of these elements of Objective Ministries wasn’t entirely serious anyway. Not quite satirical myself I have to confess, but certainly with comedic intent. Too bad I didn’t know it was someone else’s joke already though.

As for the embedded ads. So outlandish I should have known? Well, no actually. The embedded ads are actually real. They aren’t a hoax.

Chuck Norris’ kickback and his World Net Daily polemics are very real (although Arthur suspects the later may have a ghostwriter). The hateful and misleading “Why Do Atheists Hate America?” campaign is real, as is the campaign to free Kent Hovind from jail, as is the Evolutionists-Want-To-Murder-You line of deceit from Answers in Genesis.

If I got serious about anything in my post (which was really against the intent of the piece), no matter how briefly, it was about the content of these pieces of rubbish external to “Objective Ministries”.
Particularly the World Net Daily rubbish.

I got something wrong for sure, but I don’t think the mistake is too harmful or misleading, and with this correction in place I’m happy for it to stay as is. I’m a little red faced, but statistically I think it had to happen at some point and it’s not a mistake that I think I’ve ever made before (nor should I be repeating it any time soon!)

~ Bruce

The Bill Muehlenberg Trophy: Why does the Archbishop of Westminster hate democracy?


He’s demanding unopposed time for Christians to proselytise on the BBC. From the National Secular Society:

The BBC should not apply its impartiality rules when it comes to religion, and the Corporation should be biased in favour of Christianity, said Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor last week. [. . .] Murphy O’Connor also said that Christianity should have unopposed time to deliver its message on the BBC. “Sometimes the adversarial aspect — if you’ve got one view you’ve got to have the opposite view — supplants what we need.”

Murphy O’Connor is a representative of the whiny conservative wing of Catholicism, which unfortunately occupies many of the key positions in the Church and keeps the hierarchy of that particular denomination firmly entrenched in the Middle Ages. In 2001 he was wailing about the decline of Christianity in the UK, advancing the claim (with zero justification) that in the absence of his preferred dogma “Society had been demoralised, with people seeking transient happiness in alcohol, drugs and pornography.” In 2006 he sacked his press aide for being homosexual, and then declared that “the Church has consistently spoken out against any discrimination against gay persons.” He has also complained about taxpayer-funded “faith schools” being “threatened with having to take a quota of non-believers” (never mind the fact that their parents pay the taxes that fund those faith schools), and has not been reluctant to play the poor-persecuted-Christian card, accusing secularists of being “Christophobic:”

They wish to close off every voice and contribution other than their own. Their inability to see the Christian seed in what is noble and good in Western culture chills the possibility of a true pluralism.

They wish to close off every voice and contribution other than their own. Do not adjust your monitor. The man who wants Christianity to have unopposed time to deliver its message on the British national broadcaster, in a country with significant non-Christian religious communities, and in which only 38% of the total population (and I assume, taxpayers) believes in a deity, actually said that.

Via Dogma Free America.

What’s so bad about the devil?

I was listening to an interview of the author of a new book called “The Lucifer Effect“. It’s a study of how good people turn evil. I’m sure it’s interesting and whatever, but it got me thinking - what is so bad about Lucifer? Here’s the story of Him from Isaiah: When the Lord has [...]

Is Islam a ‘Western’ Religion?

A quick thought - I was listening to this interview with Chris Hedges on the Point of Inquiry Podcast: Hedges was on criticizing the New Atheists and calling them - among other things - “racists” for their ardent criticism of Islam. The obvious incongruity of that aside, his argument is that we as Westerners can’t [...]

Sam Harris on Fitna


Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks
by Sam Harris

Geert Wilders, conservative Dutch politician and provocateur, has become the latest projectile in the world’s most important culture war: the zero-sum conflict between civil society and traditional Islam. Wilders, who lives under perpetual armed guard due to death threats, recently released a 15 minute film entitled Fitna (”strife” in Arabic) over the internet. The film has been deemed offensive because it juxtaposes images of Muslim violence with passages from the Qur’an. Given that the perpetrators of such violence regularly cite these same passages as justification for their actions, merely depicting this connection in a film would seem uncontroversial. Controversial or not, one surely would expect politicians and journalists in every free society to strenuously defend Wilders’ right to make such a film. But then one would be living on another planet, a planet where people do not happily repudiate their most basic freedoms in the name of “religious sensitivity.”

Witness the free world’s response to Fitna: The Dutch government sought to ban the film outright, and European Union foreign ministers publicly condemned it, as did UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. Dutch television refused to air Fitna unedited. When Wilders declared his intention to release the film over the internet, his U.S. web-host, Network Solutions, took his website offline.