
Author Archive for Kazim

As you may know, there are those out there who attempt to influence the content of childrens' television. We call them "parents groups," although many are not comprised of parents, or at least not of folks whose primary interest is as parents. Study them and you'll find a wide array of agendum at work...and I suspect that, in some cases, their stated goals are far from their real goals.
Nevertheless, they all seek to make kidvid more enriching and redeeming, at least by their definitions, and at the time, they had enough clout to cause the networks to yield. Consultants were brought in and we, the folks who were writing cartoons, were ordered to include certain "pro-social" morals in our shows. At the time, the dominant "pro-social" moral was as follows: The group is always right...the complainer is always wrong.
This was the message of way too many eighties' cartoon shows. If all your friends want to go get pizza and you want a burger, you should bow to the will of the majority and go get pizza with them. There was even a show for one season on CBS called The Get-Along Gang, which was dedicated unabashedly to this principle. Each week, whichever member of the gang didn't get along with the gang learned the error of his or her ways.
That's just... I don't even... what?
I assume that this valuable social message also extends to your mother's favorite line about everyone else jumping off a bridge.
So in the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon, for some weird reason they were forced to keep contriving situations for Eric, the whiny cavalier, to complain about what the rest of the group was doing... so that they could promote the message by ultimately making him look dumb or suffer in some way.
I recently read (most of) David Sirota's latest book, Back to our Future: How the 1980s Explain the World We Live in Now--Our Culture, Our Politics, Our Everything. I enjoyed it, but at the same time, I found it a little excessively paranoid. Sirota's thesis is that the movies, shows, and all other entertainment that we consumed as kids in the Reagan era was all part of an overarching propaganda machine, pushing various right wing values like nationalism, consumerism, and the notion that all government is part of an evil conspiracy. In some cases I saw his point, and in others I just felt like it was a big Rorschach test where Sirota was superimposing his framework on everything he could find.
Anyway, I can't make heads or tails of this "the group is always right" thing, which is one case where there seems to have been an actual conspiracy by a specific group of individuals openly trying to give all shows a consistent message.
On a side note, blogger.com told me today that I should try switching my blog over to their nifty new customizable display format. So I did, because the group is always right and I don't want to be a complainer.
I haven't spent enough time browsing it to decide if I hate it. But if you hate it, feel free to let me know.
I have a firm policy of refusing to humor people whose method of arguing is sending me links to YouTube. But I made a special exception in this case because it's Penn Jillette, and Penn -- while very often wrong -- is always so very, very cool.
So, okay, I watched this video and was, as always, entertained by Penn's speaking style. And IMHO he's still wrong.
Penn obviously made some reasonable points that are easy to agree with. "Let's stop the government from doing really stupid stuff." Well, duh, yeah! I'm against things that are stupid! Way to go out on a limb, Penn! Solidarity, man!
In all seriousness, Penn and I agree on a lot of things, because many of his beliefs are already in the Venn diagram that includes liberals. Let's stop killing people we don't know for reasons we don't understand: check. Let's stop bailing out rich people: check. No more tobacco subsidies: check. Stop wasting time locking up people with marijuana, okay.
But then he gets to the part where a libertarian and a liberal would disagree... and he just chickens out. He says "You can make that argument that we still need education, and we still need infrastructure, and you'll probably win with me." Woot! I beat Penn Jillette without saying a word!
Actually, let me make this response explicit. Hey, Penn. We still need education, and we still need infrastructure. That is stuff that government does well and libertarian candidates don't propose a good and practical alternative to it. In fact, let's go back to the beginning of the video, and see why Penn Jillette thinks we don't actually need public education anymore. "I believe the tools are in place for people to learn on their own... I think that education is going to come from the web."
And that is, as Penn himself might say, "Bullshit!" Yes, most people have access to the web now. NO, that doesn't mean that it's an acceptable substitute for having actual teachers who spend individual time with students and react to their needs. You'll notice that despite all his praise of the internet, Penn states that he sends his own kids to "fancy ass private schools," and good for them! They're lucky to have a dad whose net worth is $175 million. But hey, if you're a poor kid then you can damn well flail around on web sites and educate yourself.
If you want to make me waste time on this (and I hope you won't, because it's too bloody obvious) I'll slap together some statistics -- yet again -- that show that countries which have solid public education systems have a more educated populace; and people who have a high school diploma -- yes, even from one of those dreaded public high schools, like me -- are better off and more successful (statistically, as a group) than people whose only education comes from "the internet."
See, the argument is not that some elitist government has to bring "enlightenment" to people. It's that it is a social good and in all our best interests for our citizens to be educated. And in the event that we have kids whose parents can't send them to fancy-ass private schools, we provide publicly funded alternatives to them rather than just throwing them under the bus and saying "Here, Timmy, play with this smart phone. See you in twelve years!"
And I'd gladly argue with Penn about bridges and infrastructure, too. But as I already said, I can't, because in this particular video Penn conceded that without a fight.
I usually don't sit and watch TV while doing nothing else, but I'll frequently have it on in the background while doing other activities.
- Finished season 5 of Doctor Who on Netflix instant watch this morning (which is why I decided to create this list). Now I have to wait for season 6 to end so I can start queuing it. I enjoyed it immensely. Lynnea will not watch it because as far as she's concerned, David Tennant is the last Doctor Who. Won't even give Matt Smith the time of day. Poor Matt.
- I've been streaming audio of the BritCom The IT Crowd on my Android in the car. Nearly done with the series. The only time this does not work is when they do musical interludes with lots of laugh track, as there is clearly some visual comedy going on that I'm missing. Almost done with the entire series. It's enjoyable, but kind of a stupider version of Big Bang Theory, which is unfortunately not available on instant watch. Stupider because in BBT, you can tell that the nerd jokes are authentic and loving. In ITC, half the time they are clearly speaking complete gibberish for laughs.
- I finished rewatching (or relistening to) Buffy a while back, but I never did get through Angel. Nearly done with Season 2 now, but it's been lower priority for me than "Who".
- Lynnea and I are now about two seasons behind Dexter. Added Season 5 to the DVD queue as it's not available on instant.
- Got Ben hooked on Third Rock From the Sun. One of the all-time great comedies, IMHO. I'm saving episodes for when he's around and we have nothing else to do.
- Watched a single episode of Breaking Bad. Promising start, I think, so I'm saving more episodes for later. It was recommended by a coworker who, in turn loves Game of Thrones and has to put up with my constant danger of spoiling the series.
- Speaking of which, season 2 of Thrones starts up again in April, so I'll be going to my sister's again for screenings. Woohoo!
- We still have about one and a half seasons of Quantum Leap that Lynnea's never seen, and we watch it at the rate of about one episode every two months. That oughta take a while.
Commence unfounded wild speculation in 3... 2... 1...
Edit: As the commenters pointed out, the surprise is already spoiled, so never mind. We're officially packing our bags and moving out of blogspot and into freethoughtblogs.com.
New URL! http://freethoughtblogs.com/axp/
We're all delighted to be joining the likes of PZ Myers, Ed Brayton, Jen McCreight, Greta Christina, and many other terrific bloggers at the new server.
Still trying to get all of our regular editors to create their accounts, and tinkering with the posts I'm migrating from here. Long story short, most likely this will be the last post at the old address.
Also, as I mentioned on the show, Lynnea and I have plans to hang out in a bar with Orlando-based fans on a weeknight in November. Check out this page for planning if you're nearby.
My understanding about atheism is you claim that because there is (supposedly) no evidence for God existing that this equates to there being evidence for God NOT existing (please correct me if I am wrong about this).
Kind of, but not exactly.
The default position for any positive claim lacking evidence is usually disbelief. "Disbelief" doesn't mean "proof against," and it doesn't mean "dogmatic certainty" -- it just means, to put it simply, that you generally don't believe in stuff without having reasons in favor of it.
To give you a small example: Suppose I told you "You know, I died last week, but I rose from the dead on the following morning, so here I am replying to your email." Would you believe me or not?
I think it's safe to say that you would ask me whether I have evidence or not. My failure to provide any wouldn't constitute proof that it didn't happen, but it wouldn't look good for me. Don't you agree?
Or suppose I tried to sell you a car which, by all appearances, seemed to be a twenty year old lemon, but I said "This car has a secret switch which can make it FLY. And I'm selling it to you for the incredibly reasonable price of $10,000." That's actually a great price for a flying car... but I'm sure you wouldn't buy it without evidence.
You see the difference between this position and what you're saying?
My question to you is this:
1) Do you have a brain? You probably think so.
2) How do you know? For the sake of epistomological argument, you could be merely a computer-based machine, akin to a very advanced robot operating on Artificial Intelligence
3) How can you prove this? Given my previous challenge, you probably can't prove the existence of your brain without cutting open your skull to demonstrate the presence of white and grey matter)
Yes, I've heard this one before, there's a popular urban legend chain mail about a student who stumps a professor with it. I have a hard time believing that anyone takes that story seriously.
This line of questioning stems from a total confusion about the difference between "evidence" and proof. You of course couldn't prove with 100% certainty that any particular person has their own brain; after all, they COULD be a very clever robot. However, the evidence that we do have is sufficient to that it's way more likely that you have a brain than any of the alternatives. For example:
- Induction (an important tool of science): Every human skull
we've ever cut open has contained a brain. Thus the DEFAULT assumption
for any given person is that they match an already observed pattern.
- Necessity: we have built up a pretty good idea of how brains work, and that they are a the source of cognitive processes in people. In order to say "Person X lacks a brain" you'd have to come up with a credible alternate explanation of why they're continuing to move around, speak, and write. Instead of, you know, lying there. (By contrast, we don't have any evidence of any particular processes caused by any gods, which means that's the possibility that requires explanation.)
- Ruling out alternatives: It's easy to SAY that your brain's been replaced with a computer, but as far as we know this can't be done successfully with any modern techology. If those kinds of transplants were commonplace, then there would be evidence for the brain switching theory, but there's not, so following the known pattern is the simplest conclusion.
4) Do you claim to know everything, as in all possible facts? If not, then what percentage of information about the world do you claim to know? 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 %? Whatever the percentage of information about the world which you have knowledge about, it surely is not a full 100% - if this is correct, then the percentage for which you do not have knowledge could, quite possibly, include existence of supernatural phenomena such as the existence of God.
Sure, the possibility is always there, even if the odds are 10^-googol. You don't need to convince me that a god is possible. I just don't believe that it's true, due to lack of evidence. If you want to change my mind about the likelihood, then find some evidence.
My argument then is as follows:
1) You do not really have logical or rational proof for claiming,
with certainty, that God does not exist
2) Therefore, you are, by definition, an agnostic, in other words: you are uncertain and do not know the final truth of the matter with regards to God's existence.
You're right. As I've said many times on the show, I'm an agnostic atheist. "Agnostic" because I don't know whether a god exists, but "atheist" because, given the information currently available, I don't share your belief that the god exists.
3) You have therefore been mistaken about calling yourself an atheist, since you actually are an agnostic and are simply in need of getting your terms right before using terms such as "atheist" inaccurately
Wrong. My usage of the word atheist is consistent with the standard definition (as I am not a theist), and also consistent with the viewpoints of many well-established atheists, such as George Smith and Richard Dawkins.
Perhaps a more accurate way of describing yourself, as well as your friends and colleagues on your show, could include:- agnostic
Yes.
- secular
Yes.
- lay
Why, because I'm not a scientist myself? Okay, I'm a layperson, but I don't see what that has to do with atheism. You and I are both lay irrespective of our religious beliefs.
- irreligious
Yes.
- epistemologists
...Sure, if you want.
Now I've agreed to your entire list of alternate description, and I'm also an atheist. If you want to throw some more labels on there, I'm also a computer programmer, a gamer, a father, etc. None of those things are mutually exclusive with atheism.
Atheism, however, with its claim to conclusively "know" that God does not exist, seems about as irrational as the very belief in God which it seems to have contempt for.
Atheism doesn't require such a claim of knowledge. I'm afraid you have been misinformed. Withholding beliefs in the absence of evidence isn't irrational, as is obviously the case in my example of the flying car.
Hope that clears things up.
I'll call you Mark because that was the first name you used when you called us, and I've spoken to you at length using that name twice. If that's not your preferred name, please let me know what name I should use instead.
For a long time, I denied that your calls were coming from the same person -- I suppose due to some kind of misguided pride. After all, I thought that you and I had some interesting and even somewhat productive conversations when I was talking to you. I didn't want to feel like those conversations had been a waste of time, and I was unfairly annoyed with the viewers in email and chat who were trying to point out the obvious -- that you were disguising your voice to keep calling.
Even after accepting that you were faking the British accent, I wasn't completely convinced that you were the original "Mark." But obviously, you gave the game away when Matt asked you about it this past Sunday. Instead of asking "Who's Mark?" you answered by repeating an argument from another of your alter egos, which was basically as good as an admission. And I know you read this blog, because you're obviously the one writing in as "ChrisLanganFan" (and Andrew, when you double-posted) so I thought I'd ask you about this directly.
First of all, why do you feel the need to disguise your identity? We don't avoid conversations with real theists. A few months ago I invited you to meet us for dinner, and I was serious about it -- I'd be happy to meet with you. (Granted, I was also trying to work out whether you were really a native of Austin as you claimed. I guess I have my answer now, and I'm disappointed.)
I recognize that the internet and phone-only conversations can feel impersonal enough that you don't need to reveal every detail of your identity, but I've always valued honesty a great deal. On the web I sometimes go by the screen name "Kazim," but I've always been up front about who I really am and what my real values are. I tend to expect that of others -- sometimes, unfortunately, incorrectly.
I had a phone conversation about you with Martin once, when I wasn't sure whether you were really calling in with multiple names and voices. Here's what I said in a nutshell: "I suppose Tom might be Mark, but I don't understand what his goal is. The way I see it, there are three possible reasons why he might be doing it: 1. To make us look bad; 2. to make us look good; 3. Some kind of weird performance art." Number three doesn't make much sense to me (again, as someone who values honesty). If it's number two, we don't need your help. And if it's number one, well, first of all you're not doing a very good job of it; and second of all, I don't see how it helps you in your goal to use fake identities. Shouldn't the arguments speak for themselves without worrying about the personality?
I guess what I'm feeling most of all is disappointment mixed with a bit of confusion. On some occasions, you seemed to be very angry about the show. On other occasions, you seemed like you were actually listening to the people who were talking to you and trying to understand what they said. And in the latest calls you've started out angry and then switched topics repeatedly without settling on one point long enough to make a lasting impression about it. This Chris Langan fascination seems like a new development -- you never asked us about him in your first few calls, and you always seem to hang up before any real discussion about him can get underway. Besides that, you appear to be more fixated on the idea that Chris Langan himself should speak to us directly to defend his ideas rather than being willing to do it yourself.
So I'm just wondering which one is the real you? How do you really feel about our show, and why is it so important that you keep talking with us at all costs? Is it because you really like us, worry about us, hate us, want to shut us down, or what?
I really am interested in trying to understand you better, but I can't do it without your help. Doesn't it bother you to try to keep all these lies straight? Wouldn't it feel better to come out and say what's really on your mind? Come on, give it a try. What do you say?
If it IS performance art, then I guess you win. You've gotten past the screeners multiple times, and now you have a lot of people talking about you. That must really stroke your ego to get all that attention, I guess. Do you want to supply a web site or a podcast so people can admire other facets of your work?
Ball's in your court, Mark.
Sincerely,
Russell Glasser
Update: "Mark" came clean in comments, pronouncing that he's an atheist who is deliberately prank calling. He repeatedly states that he will only stop if we devote 75% of the show to theist callers. He is now banned from this blog for all the previous posts in which he's lied.
Child bearing seems to be relatively uncommon in the atheist community at large. It probably has something to do with the fact that we're not subject to that "be fruitful and multiply" directive, and we have no moral issues with birth control.
While some people see that as a cause for panic -- Oh no, the stupid people will out-breed us and Idiocracy will become a documentary! -- I don't worry about it that much. Intelligence these days is passed along more by memes than by genes, and you can have a far greater impact on the sum of human intelligence by donating your time as a teacher or a writer than by replicating your particular genetic sequence.
Anyway, for those of us who do have kids, the usual questions I hear basically fall in a few categories:
- How can I raise them to be responsible, independent thinking adults?
- Should I introduce them to atheism early or do everything I can NOT to indoctrinate them?
- How do I handle my family and their peers when they inevitably get exposed to the religions that I've been shielding them from?
- What do I do if the child's other parent, or other family members, want to bring the kid up in their own religion, and/or bully me into not talking about atheism?
This is one subject where knowledge comes at least as much from direct experience and learning from past mistakes. Obviously, the issues facing an atheist parent are very similar to the problems facing all parents, but with the additional complication that you hold a minority belief and you can expect to have it constantly challenged as your child gets older. Being an effective authority figure is difficult as it is before you add in the problem of having other people feel that they have a duty to undermine your authority in a major category.
I've got no credentials to present here; I'm not a psychologist and I don't want people to get in trouble over my advice. The only reason I might have some useful advice is by virtue of the fact that I seem to have a reasonably happy, quick witted, and skeptical fourth grader.
But they still ask these questions regularly at the TV email address, and as parents, it generally falls on me or Jen to offer whatever words of wisdom we can come up with. Here's a sample of recent questions.
So my 9 year kid came home with a survey from his school asking him to rate what he values from 1 to 10. On the list are things like, world peace, family security, wisdom, self respect and then the eighth one . . . salvation. That's clearly a Christian concept right? I am not sure how to respond; this is the first time I have come across something like this. Any thoughts?
My daughter just started Kindergarten and unfortunately they are reciting the
Pledge of Allegiance daily. Up to this point has had absolutely no contact with
religious people outside of the bi-annual trips to visit family and even then it
was a prayer before dinner and that was it. With that I don't think she knew
what was actually happening.
So my predicament is she has no concept of god or religion. Which is what I had
wanted, but as I've come to find out she needs to atleast know that other people
believe in it and know the evils of religion. I want her to be prepared and I
suppose that needs to start now. What advice could you give to lay the
ground-work for the concept for a 5 year old?
I feel pretty certain there will be early conflict with our parents regarding us not allowing them to take our son to church at a very young age. They won't care that he's too young to make the decision and I suspect will attempt to push us to "let him decided" way too early all while painting it as a pretty picture to him.
While I have no intentions of completely sheltering my son from religion. I'll discuss it with him. However I feel it's necessary that we make the church decision until he's old enough to understand it and make the decision for himself. As parents that's part of our jobs. I don't see that religion should be treated any differently in that regard.
All right then. I'll do my best to answer by drawing on my own parenting history. If some of the things I say seem badly wrong, just remember what I said earlier: nobody's got all the answers.
In the first place, I'm a big fan of talking to your kid in a way that indicates you take him or her seriously. That goes for all ages. In some respects I suppose this impulse is a carry-over from my experience on the TV show, where I often wind up speaking to people with very different mindsets and assumptions from my own. What I like to do in that situation is not flatly say "I know better than you," but suggest facts, a bit at a time, and then see where they go with it. If they agree with me, I know that I don't need to waste time explaining that point. If they don't agree or don't understand, I try to pinpoint the source of the problem and then find the best angle to explain that point.
Talk to your kid about everything. If they're looking at the stars, tell them they're giant flaming balls of gas that are bigger than the earth. Then, if necessary, explain why perspective makes them appear small. If you're driving, point out street signs or whatever you understand about how cars work. If you're reading to them and they can't read yet, pick out a letter and start helping them to recognize it, or pick out a common word like "the" and help them see the pattern.
The thing is, kids learn really fast, and probably pick up on things you say a lot more than you're assuming. We all like to feel smart by figuring things out; give kids the opportunity.
When Ben was little, I read to him a lot... even before he had the cognitive ability to understand something like "The Cat in the Hat." As he got to the point where he could easily grasp the books I was reading to him, I would gradually introduce newer stuff that pushed his limits. "Charlotte's Web" was the first chapter book I read to him, I think he was 3 or 4, and every night when we picked it up I'd ask him if he could remember what had happened already. Today at age 9 we're halfway through the Hitchhiker's Guide series (we just read the penultimate chapter of Life, the Universe, and Everything to be precise), and he's always quoting his favorite passages from previous books.
I know some child psychologists think TV and computers are bad for a kid at a young age, but I grew up with them myself and I've always regarded them as just another valuable facet of art and entertainment. Ben had introductory games like "Reader Rabbit" as soon as he was capable of banging on a keyboard, and he was allowed to take my controller and suicide over and over again when I played Monkey Ball on the Wii.
Stop being so impatient, I have a point that I'm getting to!
I know I've told this story a few times on the show, but it's always worth putting in writing because it worked really well for us. With this background in appreciating fiction, I started an experiment where I explained to Ben the difference between real things and pretend things. At this point he was already pretty familiar with imaginary stories, so I playing a game with him. I would pick concepts and ask him whether they were real or pretend. Dad? Real. Cars? Real. Spongebob Squarepants? Pretend.
I found that cartoons are easy to identify as pretend, but live action drama is a bit tricky. Superman LOOKS real, after all, when he's showing up as Christopher Reeve. At least as real as President Bush, anyway. So then we have to discuss filming and camera tricks. Dinosaurs are tricky (what's extinction?). Horses are not as tricky if you've seen one in person. Kings? Real, but hard to believe when we don't have them here. Presidents are like kings, but they can still go to jail if they don't follow the law.
And what about God?
Well, that's where it gets complicated. One of the reasons that's a hard question for atheist parents to answer is, many of us have an aversion to authority. Richard Dawkins refers to raising a child to accept a religion as child abuse. While I've always thought that was very overstated, I do at least agree with him that it's folly to try to force your kid to accept your own philosophical beliefs. It's not just the due to the worry that you might become a tyrant; the worst part is that it's ineffective.
Younger kids can be pretty pliable and cooperative but (speaking from past experience with step-parenting) going through a rebellious stage is inevitable. When they start trying to strike out with their own budding adult identity, the first thing to go out the window is all the stuff that is only "because I said so." If that's the only tool you have to make kids eat their vegetables or stay away from drugs, you'd better start preparing yourself to face some out of shape and stoned teenagers.
My approach when it came to atheism was to simply answer questions honestly, explain that other people feel differently, defend my reasons for not believing, and then say "You're going to have to make up your own mind about whether I'm right or not."
Far from hiding the existence of religions and the Bible from Ben, I introduced them early. I told him the traditional Bible stories right along with stories like "Charlotte's Web" and "Bunnicula." Usually I just played them up to be as theatrical as possible, but there came a time when I read some of the same stories right from KJV. (Do you have any idea how boring the source material can be as a children's book?)
The thing is, if you hide something from your kid, you'll just make it mysterious and alluring. Bertrand Russell pointed this out with the respect to the way religions treat sex in his essay, "Has Religion Made Useful Contributions to Civilization?" Hiding a subject and calling it shameful simply increases the fascination with it.
So, by confronting religion head-on, you can minimize the novelty when some school friend invites your child to church. Which they will. And by introducing religion along with fiction and critical thinking concepts, you'll equip your kid to evaluate critically, which is far more important than simply telling him that he'd better not fall for it... or else.
Even with adults I consider that a better policy. Give me a theist who has given serious thought to his own religion and sincerely listened to the atheist point of view and that of several other major religions; against an atheist who refuses to discuss the subject at all. The theist is the guy I want to hang out with over coffee or lunch (I'm not big on beer).
I'll stop here for now. In a future post I will answer the implied question "Isn't it as bad as religious brainwashing to tell your child about your atheism?" I'll talk about how to handle other family members or friends who would like to convert your child. I'll also do my best to answer any questions that arise in the comments.
If an individual lives a life of getting away with murder, rape, pillaging, and really anything against a simple human moral code and never gets caught, do you feel that the person just simply got away with it? I'm sure the answer is yes, but I'm curious as to where the barrier of living out our darkest desires and why we would bother with morality if we knew there was some way to simply not get caught for the things we do?
I have a few separate points to make about this. The first is that justice is important to people, which is why we establish laws for people to follow, penalties if they don't, and a system that is impartial as possible to keep people following those laws. So your question about what would happen if nobody got caught for doing harmful things doesn't apply in modern society. It's not a perfect system, but it tends to work pretty well keeping me safe most of the time.
Second, you'd be wrong to assume that fear of punishment is the only thing that keeps people from committing crimes. One thing is empathy for other people. Should I go on a killing spree? Why would I want to? I care about other people, and I would feel bad if they died because of me. It wouldn't be particularly pleasurable for me, I wouldn't get any benefit from it, and there's that pesky human justice system that would make the rest of my life unpleasant.
Third, maybe there is some doctrine out there that promises justice that distinguishes between people's good and bad actions... but Christianity is not that doctrine. I don't know what sect you follow, but many of the ones I'm aware of claim that we are saved through faith and not through good works. Most Protestants assert that we are all terrible sinners regardless of what particular things we've done, and every single person deserves eternal torture equally. A preacher like Ray Comfort doesn't draw a distinction between a guy like me, who just doesn't believe in God, and someone who (as you say) gets away with murder, rape, and pillaging. In fact, according to some preachers, this hypothetical murderer could experience a sincere conversion moments before he died, and he'd go to heaven.
So in promoting Christianity, I think you're really asking whether I feel bad that I won't ever experience eternal suffering as the just punishment for my own crime of not believing in your God. And the answer is no.
My friend is a big fan of your show and would like to know why, given your Atheism, you still believe in marriage. His point of view is that marriage is a religious institution, so why would an atheist have anything to do with it? He asks if it's for a tax break, or if polygamy is somehow wrong for an atheist?
As a guy about to be married for the second time, I support the institution of marriage -- both gay and straight. I recommend you start by reading this article on Wikipedia:
Rights and responsibilities of marriages in the United States
Marriage carries with it a host of federal benefits assumed to be conferred automatically on each spouse. These prominently include:
- Numerous tax benefits, as you mentioned, including the right to file jointly
- Legal status with stepchildren
- joint parenting rights, such as access to children's school records
- family visitation rights for the spouse and non-biological children, such as to visit a spouse in a hospital or prison
- next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions or filing wrongful death claims
- Survivor benefits on death
- Automatic recipient of life insurance for some jobs
- Tax-free transfer of property between spouses (including on death) and exemption from "due-on-sale" clauses.
Your friend is simply misinformed when he says that marriage is a religious institution. It isn't. Marriage existed long before religion got its hooks in it, and the fact that religious people today are going around demanding that their views of marriage ought to be "protected" is simply bunk, and pointless entanglement between church and state. A church can "marry" you in the sense that they can perform a ceremony, but unless you sign those legal papers that are recognized by lawyers (or in some states, meet various other requirements that make you married), you're not married in the eyes of the law, and that's where it counts.
As for polygamy: I'm on the fence about it, along with many other atheists. Legally, a contract between three people is much more complicated than a contract between two. For instance, what happens if person A wants to divorce person B, but still loves C, while B and C wish to remain married? Because it's so complex, I'm not pushing for legal polygamy. There is also the concern that polygamy as practiced is often used as a smokescreen for coercion and sex with minors, as in the recent case of epic scumbag Warren Jeffs. That's not okay, since it doesn't involve consenting adults who are in a legal position to make their own large life-changing decisions.
Having said that, I'm not particularly morally opposed to polygamy, as long as it's between consenting adults and as long as I don't have to sort out their legal affairs. I wouldn't do it, but other people can for all I care. In the absence of legal polygamy, I'm also not opposed to people being polyamorous. (Hat tip to Dan Savage's excellent podcast and column, where he discusses this regularly.) Fool around with other partners as much as you want, as long as nobody in the arrangement is deceived about what they're getting into.
Note that my description of it as legally acceptable doesn't amount to my recommending it as a good idea for anyone in particular. In the worst case, miscommunication could occur, jealousy could pop up, feelings could be hurt, and relationships could be broken. But as long as everybody's aware of that going in... you're adults, I'm not responsible for your therapy bills. :)
3:57 PM kyle: russel you got a second
3:58 PM ill get ahold of you
There follows a brief pause as I look Kyle up in my email history, because I have no idea who this is. Turns out I had two email exchanges with him, and it's abundantly clear that he's a theist, and that his reason for believing is of the "You can't prove me wrong" variety.
I don't want to encourage private chats with someone I don't like, but I'm not feeling the urge to be too rude, so I go along with only slightly testy non-encouragement.
3:59 PM me: I'm at work. What do you need?
No answer for a few minutes, so I check again.
4:06 PM me: Yes?
4:11 PM kyle: i have a song that has a glory in it.. most the song will be annoying but if you wana hear Gabriel listen in with logic of course
[My inner thoughts: You have a what what in the what now?]
4:12 PM me: Why would I be interested in listening to something annoying?
kyle: not all of it
4:13 PM its all good if your ever intrested let me know
me: Why is it that you're wanting me to hear it?
4:14 PM kyle: there is a recorded part in it that has no effects and is a angel singing
[Undt how long haff you felt zis vay?]
me: And how do you know that?
4:15 PM kyle: because im one
me: You're an angel.
kyle: yeah
me: Nice to meet you.
kyle: =)
me: What kind of superpowers do you have?
kyle: lol
mock away
4:16 PM i cant share anything with a fool
me: You're the one who said you were an angel, I assume you're having fun with me. I was just playing along.
kyle: lol ill talk to ya later
we will
Oh, snap! He called me a fool! I guess God exists.
In these more enlightened times, I have so much regular entertainment to choose from that I can easily fill all my driving time and more with shows which confirm my own personal beliefs and prejudices, and much of the time I do. But when Beth asked her Facebook friends what fundie podcasts she could listen to last week, it reminded me. How is Hank doing? I really should start listening again.
And I'm so glad I did. Because if I hadn't listened to the August 1 episode, I never would have run into this great article by Jerry Coyne. It's titled: "As atheists know, you can be good without God."
To put it mildly, Hank did not like this article.
Here are a few excerpts.
...[I]t's clear that even for the faithful, God cannot be the source of morality but at best a transmitter of some human-generated morality.This isn't just philosophical rumination, because God — at least the God of Christians and Jews — repeatedly sanctioned or ordered immoral acts in the Old Testament. These include slavery (Leviticus 25:44-46), genocide (Deuteronomy 7:1-2; 20:16-18), the slaying of adulterers and homosexuals, and the stoning of non-virgin brides (Leviticus 20:10, 20:13, Deuteronomy 22:20-21).
Was God being moral when, after some children made fun of the prophet Elisha's bald head, he made bears rip 42 of them to pieces (2 Kings 2:23-24)? Even in the New Testament, Jesus preaches principles of questionable morality, barring heaven to the wealthy (Matthew 19:24), approving the beating of slaves (Luke 12:47-48), and damning sinners to the torments of hell (Mark 9:47-48). Similar sentiments appear in the Quran.
...
Should we be afraid that a morality based on our genes and our brains is somehow inferior to one handed down from above? Not at all. In fact, it's far better, because secular morality has a flexibility and responsiveness to social change that no God-given morality could ever have.
Sentiments I think most of us can get behind, but that's no big surprise, right? Most of you readers are on Jerry Coyne's side, as I am.
Now I don't know if you've ever heard Hank Hanegraaff, but he's got this very calm, very soothing voice, with what I would describe as almost a Jim Henson-like quality. He sounds reassuring, authoritative, certain of his facts. Most of the time.
On this particular occasion, as he talked about the terrible injustice of Coyne's article, he just kept getting more and more agitated. He didn't actually refute these claims about the Bible, mind you -- he threw them out there, dismissed them by saying they were "out of context," and then said he'd go over them in depth on another day. Which I loved, because there's no more effective way to stoke an opposing argument than to repeat it without refuting it properly.
By the time he was done with the subject, Hank was doing a passable impression of Yosemite Sam, bringing up the usual red herrings like Mao Zedong and Pol Pot (even implying that Pol Pot was just a humanist trying earnestly to set up an "egalitarian society," which made me say "WTF?")
The best line of the show, however, was when Hank said in a voice of grave and sorrowful concern: "The thing that I find particularly troubling about this article... is that when you read it without discernment skills, you can end up believing it."
Dead on, Hank. Of course, with proper analysis, it's even more plausible. But I think Jerry Coyne should graciously accept the compliment that his rhetoric is so good that people without discernment skills are more likely to accept his reasoning than the Bible stories that they usually take as a given.
That's what bugs evangelists about the internet in general. They're used to stating their case in a vacuum. When someone like Hank Hanegraaff says, as he did to a caller later in the show, "God loves you so much that He sent His son to die for you," he's counting on the assumption that some rude and dickish atheist isn't going to pop up and ask something like "How do you know that?" And when they solemnly proclaim that only God makes you moral, they hate it when you point to passages where Jesus endorses beating your slaves.
Similar sentiments abound these days; just a few weeks ago, Josh McDowell was saying that "The Internet has given atheists, agnostics, skeptics, the people who like to destroy everything that you and I believe, the almost equal access to your kids as your youth pastor and you have... whether you like it or not."
Equal access? That's what we're gaining that's so terrifying? Apparently religion can only thrive if they can muzzle the atheists, shut them up, shame them into not making a peep while we're being slandered.
Keep on scaring them, folks.



Planet Atheism buttons
FAQ (includes joining info)
RSS feed
Email subscription

