Monthly Archive for November, 2009Page 3 of 6

RationalResponse Youtube Account Back

It's with sorrow and sadness that I announce the Rational Response Youtube account is back online.  In the years of my atheist activism I've never had the pleasure of working with a more frustrating and horribly run company.  It's often seemed to me as if they have 4 employees, 3 of which have their heads up their ass, and the 4th is measuring how far they managed to insert it.  I'd sit here and tell you the stories, but why relive the pain.  Nevertheless a few people asked for our youtube account to be back online, so I've been working on it since October 11th, and they finally managed to do what by law was supposed to be done by October 25th.  I have no plans to upload another video to that account, however it's likely that I will at some point.  I deleted a few videos that I felt were less relevant, and upon seeing some of these videos for the first time in months realized I would prefer to not come off quite as harsh.  Not that I don't think we shouldn't be mocking and laughing at religion, I would like to do it with a slightly more calm demeanor if I can.  Which of course remains to be seen.  

I've decided to put together a little playlist of the videos I'd most want someone to see if they've never seen any of the videos on our youtube account before.  

In Rationality,

Brian Sapient

 

Here they are... 

 

Sybil’s Sagan

My most beautiful cousin, Sybil (affectionately "Shay" as kids, although we have never met), posted a Carl Sagan quote on Facebook the other day. Sadly, it got lost in the mix of notifications and vodka...so I am just now getting around to commenting. :) I promised a blog post, so here goes...Carl Sagan was a brilliant scientist who died almost 13 years ago. He is well known for his work in the

Sybil’s Sagan

My most beautiful cousin, Sybil (affectionately "Shay" as kids, although we have never met), posted a Carl Sagan quote on Facebook the other day. Sadly, it got lost in the mix of notifications and vodka...so I am just now getting around to commenting. :) I promised a blog post, so here goes...Carl Sagan was a brilliant scientist who died almost 13 years ago. He is well known for his work in the

Quick Fact

The term lunatic or lunacy is the product of the 18th century belief that the moon affected peoples psychological dispositions. Thus lunacy, lunatic from the latin root luna. The popularity of the term lunatic today illustrates the strong grasp this belief had on the medical science of the time.....scary

Quick Fact

The term lunatic or lunacy is the product of the 18th century belief that the moon affected peoples psychological dispositions. Thus lunacy, lunatic from the latin root luna. The popularity of the term lunatic today illustrates the strong grasp this belief had on the medical science of the time.....scary

The Purpose of Christmas

I was just walking through the store and saw a copy of "The Purpose of Christmas" by Pastor Rick Warren.  I got swelled up with desire to respond to this book.  It was easy pickins.  I got home and headed straight to Amazon to purchase a used copy (there's no way I'd buy it new).  If I hadn't had the positive fund raising efforts recently I wouldn't have bought it.  I'm semi-considering becoming a flea of this book and writing a book response (not just an internet one).  In fact any of the regulars here would find this book an easy shred.  Seriously every sentence I saw deserved some form of response, even for nothing but to correct the semi-deceptive manner in which he builds his case to love Christmas because of Christ.

I forget most of what I briefly read in the store.  I'm feeling the juices flowing and got awfully worked up as a result of wanting so bad to see a published response to this book.  Considering my history with wars on Christmas I might be just the guy. By the way, The Blasphemy Challenge is coming up on a 3 year anniversary and near a million views.  

Does anyone have a copy?  You can check the preview out on Amazon.

 

UPDATE: The Purpose of Christmas response to Pastor Rick Warren

 

Grammatically Poor, Semi-Chronological, but Hilarious Review of New Moon

Note: Contains run-on sentences and general grammatical confusion which I have no desire to fix.

The redeeming feature of the Twilight Saga is that it’s so bad that it’s a satire of itself. Thus, it actually does make it worth it to go see it and laugh at it, and what’s the most hilarious night to go watch the latest installment of the series? Opening night when all the fangirls scream every time Robert Pattinson takes his shirt off!

So here’s a list of my favourite moments from New Moon and if you can make sense of what I’ve written here then perhaps there is hope yet for stuff that I write under sleep deprivation.

The opening looks great but it’s not a New Moon, it’s a Lunar Eclipse with the words slowly appearing on the Earth’s shadow. Screaming occurs when the N appears and returns when the full title appears.

Bella rushes through the Spanish Inquisition running for some mysterious reason.

I am struck with a moment of profound perplexity. The opening words actually sound well-written. Must I abandon my belief that Stephenie Meyer is shit in light of the new evidence? No. I quickly recognize the words to be from Shakespeare. That explains why it sounded sooo good.

Bella’s in a meadow. Edward appears. Fangirls scream. Lulz ensues. Some weird dream about how she’s an old lady. Edward sparkles. They have rays of light protruding from his sparkles. Thus, Edward looks like some sort of transcendental energy porcupine. Ew ew ew ew ew.

Bella hates her birthday for no apparent reason. She also is self-loathing enough that she folds a picture of her with Edward so it only shows Edward and not herself.

We see Edward walking to her in the parking lot like some sort of male model and I put the barrel of the gun in my mouth.

Edward: I’m 109
Bella: I shouldn’t date such old men. It’s gross.

Following an attack on her by Jasper Dr. Carlisle stitches her up. She sits close. Surprisingly they don’t have as much overt God-stuff, just references to damnation and souls. Anyway, for me that was the most romantic part ’cause Carlisle is hawt.

Edward’s dad has got it goin’ on.

Bella and Edward argue about vampirizing her. She’s like “you can have my soul!” following a kissing scene and I, deciding I need to show that I have a greater ability to reference literature than Smeyer by whispering to myself in the theatre, quote Marlowe’s Faustus. “Helen, make me immortal with a kiss. Suck out my soul, see where it flies!”

I’m not sure about the second part of the quote, but I think there was a bit about Faustus saying stuff about his soul when he kisses Helen. Anyway it sort of fits.

Edward leaves her but it unfortunately is not as hilarious as in the book.

Later however, we are redeemed with an arcing shot of Kirsten Stewart with the most cliché depressed expression ever. So cliché that it’s comical and I really wish I had a picture but I don’t.

Bella goes on a statutory motorcycle ride because she finds that the pedophiles and the motorcycles are dangerous enough that she can hear Edward’s voice in her head and see his face. She then becomes friends with Jacob so he can fix some motorcycles so she can try to kill herself so she can see and hear Edward.

When that doesn’t work out because Jacob realizes that she bleeds when she crashes… well I just forget what happens after that.

There’s some hilarious scene where Bella makes a guy who’s interested in her go see an action film instead of a romance. We hear bits from the action film which actually satirizes action films quite well.

“I’ll blow your frickin’ head off!”
“No, I’ll blow your frickin’ head off!”
Gunshots are heard as the camera shows Mike and Jacob trying to get Bella to hold their hands.

Jacob’s actually kind of attractive. Until we find out he’s a furry wolf and then it just feels… bestial.

He and Bella walk along the beach and he says “it’s not a lifestyle choice, Bella! I was born this way and I can’t change it!” and I lol’d.

There’s some action with CGIwolf vs vampire and CGIwolf vs CGIwolf. At one point one of the vampires trying to kill Bella is being chased around by the CGIwolves and Bella had randomly decided at that time to go jump off a cliff. I dunno about the book but the film definitely makes it seem like a suicide attempt.

And in one cathartic moment I cheer as she crashes below the waves, the moment I’d been waiting for. All those years up until that point between when I’d first heard of Twilight and seeing her die came to a palpitating point and vanished…

And, well, she nearly succeeds but Jacob saves her.

It’s then that she finds out that Edward believes she’s dead and they have to go to Italy to stop Edward from trying to kill himself (oh aha it’s a Romeo and Juliet parallel!) and there’s fun shots of Alice driving a yellow sports car.

Then she has to run through the Spanish Inquisition to keep Edward from stepping out into the sunlight and thus being killed by the Volturi (evil vampires who don’t like it when you reveal the existence of vampires to humans) so she does but then the Volturi makes them go talk to them anyway and they’re like wtf?

We meet Dakota Fanning as Jane who Edward seems to know somewhat well. Dakota Fanning takes pleasure in inflicting pain upon Edward at some point. The whole Lolitaness of her stature and the fact that she’s enjoying the pain bit leads me to believe Dakota Fanning is Edward the Pedobear’s ex-lover.

And they’re like, if you were gonna make her immortal we’d not eat her. So Alice gets a vision just in time of Edward and Bella frolicking and it’s the most cheesy thing you ever have and ever will see and even the fangirls were laughing at it because it was so cheesy. Not that it was intended to be cheesy, it was supposed to be serious and to show that Bella would get vampirized, but it was just cheesy and slow mo and frolicky.

As they leave there’s a group of tourists being led back to where they came from by one of the Volturi members. Screams are heard as they are eaten.

That’s disturbing, it really is. Herding humans into that and it’s like something I read in The Road about keeping humans in a basement and using them for food that was seriously disturbing and I didn’t think Smeyer was capable of something that gutsy and disturbing but apparently that bullshit. I was like WTF? I didn’t know she was actually capable of something dark and not producing transcendental energy porcupines.

Anyway, Jacob and Edward almost fight and Bella tells him not to make her choose because if she chooses between necrophilia and beastiality necrophilia is kinkier.

Then Edward asks her to marry him.

THE END!

Me: Let’s leave before we get lynched.

Oh, and another funny thing… There would be screams lasting for several seconds when Rob Pattinson or that werewolf guy came on screen but then there was actually a greater number of people laughing at the fangirls so the laughing persisted for five times longer than the screaming.


Some recent RRS rumors…

So how many atheists out there embrace faith?  The more I learn, the more I realize faith permeates everything... way too many atheists utilize it.  Question everything, and when the source is available, ask it.

Rumor 1:  Sam Harris gave the RRS $500,000 for a house.  They proceeded to do nothing but play video games and smoke pot.

Status: False.  Sam Harris isn't our anonymous investor.  The video game and pot rumor likely stems from the times we hung out and partied with other atheists.  If I'm correct, it's sad they left thinking that a night of partying is what happens every night.  I would think our body of work spoke for itself.  

 

Rumor 2: They got a free house from an anonymous investor.

Status: False.  I purchased a large house with the help of an investor who owns 60% of the house.  When we sell, we each get our share.  I consider it a huge gift but technically we weren't given anything, all the money the investor spends on the mortgage will be returned upon sale of the home.

 

Rumor 3: Brian Sapient decided to leave Rational Response Squad but not tell anyone because he was still making money on it.

Status: False.  I informed subscribers that I was working a real life job about the same time I started working one.  I started working the job to preserve the ability of RRS to function, to stay afloat.  I spent 80% of my life savings in the 3 years I worked RRS full time to cover the difference between income from RRS and expenditures.  Additionally I was dealing with a batch of personal issues that are personal.  I never left RRS.  I consistently spent time as I could addressing issues related to upkeep and maintenance. I was $50,000 in the hole for the three years that I ran RRS without a real job, sorry for making a few hundred of it back while I worked a real job and didn't dedicate 100 hours a week to RRS.  

 

Rumor 4: Brian Sapient has only returned to make money.

Status: False.  This isn't a comeback... I never left, I never will.  Try living your life for the rest of your life working 100 hours a week on the same thing, see if you can do it.  Need a break from time to time?  I worked a real life job, recharged my batteries, waited out the recession a little, and got right back to it.  I decided to get a job because I had used up so much of my savings and at the start of the recession got quite a few warnings from subscribers that they had to pull back donations as a result of the downturn.  

I'm not going anywhere, this site isn't going anywhere.  It will exist after my death as well.  The RRS has not made a profit.

RRS HAS NOT MADE A PROFIT.

I left a good career to do this, this is my love, this is my legacy, my effort to make the world a better place.  If I was in it for the money, I would be a little smarter than to work for 80 cents an hour. If I was in it for the money there would be no RRS. Maybe I'd be the President of a big Atheist org... you know the people that make $60,000-$100,000 a year.  

 

Rumor 5: RRS is Atheist Nexus

Status: False.  I didn't even have an atheist nexus account until yesterday.  The Rational Response Squad page on atheist nexus was started by a friend of mine.

 

Rumor 6: Brian Sapient and Kelly started a rumor that Richard Dawkins cheated on his wife to get back at him.

Status: False.  We didn't start a rumor.  This one is rather easy to pick apart, can you find anywhere that Kelly or I posted that in a public place at the time when it supposedly happened?  This is what it looks like when I "get back" at someone.  It looks a little different than "he said it, just not on the internet anywhere."  I wouldn't want the world to know a story like that, imagine what the Christians would do with that info.

 

Rumor 7: Kelly was spending RRS money on illegal drugs.

Status: False.  Kelly was on prescription medication, if she had an issue with substance abuse it was more in the alcohol department, she made her drinking public during a few broadcasts.  Those concerned about Kelly should know she's doing better now, and she's on a better track.  We spoke yesterday for the first time in about 80 days.  We have a mutual admiration for each other and hope the best for each other.  She's currently working on bettering herself in a number of areas, details of which are personal.  

 

Rumor 8: Sam Harris wanted to give us $500,000 to work on a non-profit but decided against it to do The Reason Project instead.

Status: False.  However, may I note that "The Reason Project" is not working... we can't even get atheists to embrace reason.  This rumor might've stemmed from my interest in helping Sam Harris get the project started, and the fact that at one point he explained that groups like RRS would be the beneficiaries of funds... however we'd have to be a non-profit.  

I'm not a 501-C-3 so that we don't have to limit what we talk about.  If I wanted to limit what we were going to talk about we could be a non-profit and I'd likely make over $60,000 a year.  I'm just trying to get by and I'm frugal about it.  Every penny is stretched to the limit.

 

 

 

Spread this post around, help faithful atheists everywhere. 

 

 

 

 

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Ray Comfort’s Introduction (Released Version)

A while ago, I mentioned how Ray Comfort was redoing his introduction for the “special” release of (On) The Origin of Species. At the time, he hadn’t put it up, but it is out now (and interestingly, so is the rest of the book, though it says only the introduction). Check it out for yourself.

So I finally got to reading it. Did he do what he said? Is it more even-handed and honest about its intentions? Let’s take a stroll through the introduction together, and I’ll just throw out my thoughts as they come up, ok?

<stream of thought>

Starting with a (brief) biography of Darwin. Ok, not much to say about that, if it’s factual. Not really relevant to the validity of the theory, but interesting to know I suppose.

Seems very interested in 1) Not getting good grades 2) marrying his cousin

P4:  Second time he refers to Cambridge as “Christ’s College”

P5:  And we start the discussion of Darwin’s religious views. Come on. What does that have to do with evolution? This is exactly the problem all over this debate. Religion has absolutely NOTHING to do with science. Evaluate a theory for its own merits. Portraying Darwin as a godless heathen to make him seem less credible, or to make it seem like a religious debate is wrong.

P9: The DNA code… So, did Comfort read this book before adding an introduction?

As you can see, random letters rarely produce words that make sense. But in time, mindless chance formed them into the order of meaningful words with spaces between them. Periods, commas, capitals, italics, quotes, paragraphs, margins, etc., also came into being in the correct placements. The sentences then grouped themselves to relate to each other, giving them coherence. Page numbers fell in sequence at the right places, and headers, footers, and footnotes appeared from nowhere on the pages, matching the portions of text to which they related.

This is nothing like evolution, and pretending so is either blatantly misleading, or it shows a complete lack of understanding. Here’s a better example, easy to visualize. Take 100 dice and throw them on the table. What are the odds you get all 6’s? Pretty slim. Do it again? Still pretty slim. How many times do we have to do this to get all 6’s? A huge number (think almost 100 digits). Now, play this game: take one die and roll it until you get a 6. Set that one aside. Take another and roll it until you get a six. Set it aside too. Continue to do this until you have 100 sixes. How long would that take? A while, but not really, compared to the first. It isn’t magic ink falling from the sky into perfectly formed words in one shot.

P11: DNA similarities -

To the question of whether sharing 96 percent of our genetic make-up with chimps makes us 96 percent chimp, Steven Jones, a renowned British geneticist, humorously commented, “We also share about 50% of our DNA with bananas and that doesn’t make us half bananas …”

Well of course not. Who said it did? I have two parents – am I half of each of them? I have 4 grandparents, am I 25% of each of them too? So I’m 200% of a human already, how far back do I go and still say I’m xx% of that? When you say that DNA is similar, it’s an observation. He’s trying to use that as evidence for a “common creator”, but at the same time acting like it’s ridiculous to consider. Pick one, man.

p15:

The creatures that Gingerich was looking at were simply different animals with similar hearing ability, and his conclusion was merely unscientific speculation.

Oh the irony of “unscientific speculation” in this context! Still, discussing “transitional forms” and lack of a “missing link” is interesting. Sure, on some level we will always wish for more fossils than we have. But what if we found some sort of transitional form between two species? Actually now there are 2 gaps to fill! Now we need to find two transitional forms to convince him! In all seriousness, evolution doesn’t happen linearly or on an even time scale. Changes in environment cause the need for a species to evolve, which happens in spurts and jumps. The fossil record is not going to be quite the pretty picture that Comfort seems to demand.

P 20:

Admittedly, this puts a tremendous responsibility on mutations to accidentally create complex new body parts, and on natural selection to recognize the benefit these new parts will eventually convey and make sure the creatures with those new parts survive.

Is Comfort admitting this? That doesn’t count as “admitting”, since you’re arguing against it. And really, he’s talking about irreducible complexity. I’ve said my piece on ID before.

P 23:

Therefore, mutations are not logical adaptations that make a creature better suited for its environment. They are completely random—the result of mindless, undirected chance.

Yes! Precisely! But I don’t think that means what you think it means. They are mindless and undirected, but that doesn’t mean that some of them don’t happen to be beneficial. The unhelpful ones don’t have any reason to propagate, and the helpful ones do. Mindless, undirected, but when viewed over a large population and large timescale – evolutionary.

P 26: Evolution’s difficult questions.

I’m a little tired of this. Does anyone actually claim that evolution is perfect and ties up everything in a perfect package? I doubt it. That’s not how science works. The real error is to say “Evolution isn’t perfect, ergo – GOD”. Science works on improving theories and finding better and better explanations (a little evolutionary, no?). So, yes we should ask the tough questions, but not having an answer for them (yet) isn’t checkmate – it’s how we make the theory better.

P 27: Which came first blood or heart?

Oh Good! This one again. Here’s the answer. Also, quit using irreducible complexity as a scientific rebuttal. There’s no prediction of the theory, it just says “is this one irreducibly complex? No. Ok what about this one? No. Ok what about…” How long do we have to play that game to satisfy you?

P 30:

However, if an organ were no longer needed, it could at best be considered devolution. This is consistent with the Law of Entropy—that all things deteriorate over time. What evolution requires, however, is not the loss but the addition of information, where an organism increases in complexity. “Vestigial organs” therefore do not serve as evidence for evolution.

Oops, nope. Let’s remember to keep our vocabulary correct. Evolution is the name of the theory and refers only to change. There is no ultimate goal of evolution, and no such thing as devolution. A species could perfectly well evolve to adapt to a certain change, and evolve back if a new change spurred it. There is no “perfect species” that we’re all progressing toward, and evolution doesn’t say that. It merely makes us fit together. If you can’t live in your “niche” then you either evolve or die.

Plus – Entropy? Really? That’s not exactly what entropy is about. By your logic, we shouldn’t be able to build a car, because that’s not deteriorating those specific atoms, which violates thermodynamics.

P 31: Darwin’s unsavory views, Atheism, Christianity

I knew it… <sigh>. Here’s a fun list of topics we get to enjoy: social darwinism, Darwin’s racism, atheists agree he was a racist, disdain for women, Hitler (!), lots of Hitler, Darwinism = Atheism = do-whatever-you-want-no-morals-ism, nothing created everything, theist scientists from history, lots and lots of “let me save you from Hell”, analyzing other religions as answers to Christianity’s questions?, go love Jesus, go love Jesus, come on just be a Christian!

An atheist wrote and said, “What do Darwin’s personal views on race have to do with our modern understanding of evolution? Nothing. Absolutely nothing, Ray. Even a fool knows this.” Indeed, Darwin’s racism has nothing to do with the credibility of the theory of evolution. It should stand or fall on its own merits. However, the theory itself teaches that all men are not created equal. Darwinian evolution doesn’t say that human beings are made in the image of God and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. It rather states that they are mere animals, some closer to apes than others, and it therefore opens wide the door to racism.

He was so close to an intelligent thought I got chills, but then another flatline. No, the theory says nothing about rights, a God or anything like that (including some people being closer to apes than others, which is a blatant lie). There are many ways we can derive morals and rights, which have nothing to do with being told how to live by a God. It doesn’t open the door to racism, but what if it did? I don’t advocate racism in any way, but the social implications of a theory don’t make it wrong. What if I had some crazy way to connect gravity with killing babies. Does that mean that you’re going to stop believing in gravity because you think killing babies is wrong? Evolution stands or falls by itself, and clouding the issue with this is incredibly misleading, dishonest, and sad.

</stream of thought>

Well, I have to say that whether or not he actually changed the introduction to be more fair like he said he would, it’s exactly what I expected. There are blatant lies, misleading facts and irrelevant crap all over the place. It’s a shame that he did it, but What do we do about it? Exactly what I’m doing. Share your thoughts. Expose the crap that doesn’t belong in this discussion. As he notes just before the actual text:

Someone once graciously said, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” However, it seems that some contemporary atheists don’t share such honorable convictions. When they learned about this publication they threatened lawsuits, book burnings, and even censorship in vowing to tear the Introduction out of the book.

And for once, he’s entirely right. This is exactly the wrong reaction. If ideas are good, they will be judged as good. It’s not up to us to keep ideas from anyone, only to combat the bad ones with even more good. Instead of burning them or tearing out the pages, why not get out a red pen and mark the crap out of it, go back to the street and hand it out to someone new?

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The Human Eye | Richard Dawkins & Randolph Nesse

The Human Eye | Richard Dawkins & Randolph Nesse

I hate god on Facebook

When this blog was created, we knew of nothing called Facebook. Yes, there was Myspace...but that's a different animal. I love Facebook. I love knowing what my "friends" are doing and going thru. I love getting invitations to parties and MMA fight watching parties...Status updates are my favorites, and I have several favorite friends that I troll Facebook for daily to check out what they're doing

I hate god on Facebook

When this blog was created, we knew of nothing called Facebook. Yes, there was Myspace...but that's a different animal. I love Facebook. I love knowing what my "friends" are doing and going thru. I love getting invitations to parties and MMA fight watching parties...Status updates are my favorites, and I have several favorite friends that I troll Facebook for daily to check out what they're doing

Heard a rumor about the RRS? Don’t know if you like it here?

I just read this quote from Natural posted on our Atheist Nexus group page and found it to be one of the best summations of the "I hate you RRS" effect that I've seen over the years...

Natural wrote:

Just a warning to anyone reading this who's not familiar with the RRS forums: A lot of people have the wrong impression about RRS, based on rumors and haters, but if you go in with an open mind -- instead of assuming you know what it's all about -- then we are very welcoming of anyone willing to discuss anything with intellectual honesty. Some of our long-time members are people we strongly disagree with, but get along with just fine because they are honest to us and themselves. On the other hand, if you start making claims and accusations with nothing to back it up, we will challenge you unrelentingly. A lot of people can't handle this, and hence we get a lot of haters spreading rumors.

 

Oh, ironically the reason I noticed the quote was because I was going to look at the new group Natural formed.  Here is the information on his wonderism group. I didn't have an account on nexus, and I still don't.  So if you're looking for me there, you'll be looking for a while.

 

 

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The Paradox of Theistic Morality

Hello again, dear readers! I apologize for the extended layoff, but I have been terribly busy lately. Today's topic concerns the relationship between religious values and morality.

I have envisioned a brief analysis of religion and morality as a casual, but animated, conversational dialogue. I imagine that such a conversation may develop between two close friends, Q and A. Our pal Q is a theist (he or she could be a Jew, a Muslim, or a Christian - it doesn't matter) while A happens to be a non-theist.

Q: It's incomprehensible to me how an atheist could have an explanation for morality.

A: Why so?

Q: Well, I've always believed that there must be some form of absolute morality, and that God is the best explanation for our sense of right and wrong. This seems especially likely to be the case in light of the arguments of famous defenders of the faith such as C.S. Lewis and William Lane Craig.

A: I think it's highly unlikely that God's morality is absolute. Doesn't the god of the Bible say that it's wrong to murder, yet even in books such as--

Q: --Allow me to interject. Do you believe in right and wrong? If I ask you about slavery, do you believe it is wrong? If I ask you about rape, do you believe it is wrong? If I ask you about theft, do you believe that is wrong?

The bottom line is that we all agree that certain things are just wrong, yet why should we agree to this if there is no objective morality in place?

A: You're asking me why we should agree that slavery and rape and theft are wrong?

Q: Yes.

A: Well, first of all, you're asking me whether we agree. Don't you think that if there were an absolute morality, you wouldn't have to ask me whether I agreed? In that case, wouldn't I just know that they're wrong?

Q: But don't you agree that they're wrong?

A: I do. But it's not because I believe that any god said so.

Q: Then if there is no god watching over you, if there is no ultimate moral standard, then who can tell you not to run out into the street and rape, steal, or kill? Who can tell you that it's not okay to cheat on your wife or your taxes?

A: I think you're finally beginning to understand what I'm trying to say. Who can tell me that it's not okay to cheat on my taxes? Who can tell me that it's not okay to rape or kill or defraud someone?

Q: Are you going to answer my questions, or are you just being cute with me?

A: No, I'm going to answer your questions directly. Allow me to elaborate.

Let's pretend that you have a group of agents in one place. All of them can benefit if they take something away from the others, but none of the others benefit if something is taken away from them. Wouldn't it be the most beneficial for all of the agents if everyone could have security for themselves and their possessions?

Societies decide on what is moral or immoral. Societies are built upon a foundation of respect, trust, and empathy.

If your husband or wife catches you cheating, he or she is going to lose that trust, and your relationship will deteriorate. If the government catches you cheating on your taxes, you'll go to jail -- if you aren't caught, then there will be less money to pay for things like national defense and road construction and social security, and if everybody acts like that, then the relationship of the country will deteriorate. If individuals don't cooperate, everyone suffers.

Do you really need a god to tell you that people will get hurt if you're selfish or rash or cruel? Do you really need a god to tell you that peoples' lives will be improved significantly over the long run if they would only cooperate?

Q: I'm afraid you're missing the forest for the trees. What if the majority of individuals liked or enjoyed rape? Would you still say that it's moral? Wouldn't you still say that it's morally wrong?

A: If there were a society that approved of rape, then perhaps that would be a difficult dilemma. But how likely is it that a society which widely approves of rape can survive or flourish?

Q: How naive you are. Do you realize that patriarchal societies throughout history have engaged in and even justified spousal rape under the law? Here's a case where most of the people in a society see no problem with something, the society is not negatively affected because of this something, and yet you still would hesitate to say that you are not morally opposed to this something.

A: You're right; just because something survives or flourishes doesn't make it fair or just.

Q: Ah ha, fair and just! You're using the vocabulary of absolute morality. How do you have any idea what is fair or what is just? Aren't you arguing that fairness and justice evolve along with the societies in which they develop? You have no justification to say that something isn't fair or isn't just because you have no consistent standard to say what it is that makes something fair or just in the first place.

A: You're right, again. Racial minorities and women and religious minorities and those of differing sexual orientations than the majority have struggled to obtain rights and are still struggling to obtain rights today. How far have we come in discerning what is fair or just, and how far must we go?

Q: How far? Not only are you avoiding my questions now, but you're also just bringing more and more difficulties for your position in this discussion. You can't analyze the past and discern whether something that happened then was moral or immoral unless you have a consistent, absolute standard of morality.

A: Humanity has developed different moral ideas such as justice, empathy, fairness, and loyalty. As we learn more about the universe around us and the reality of our existence, our knowledge about ourselves and about our world increases. As our quantity and quality of information increases, so does our potential opportunity to reflect upon what is fair and just.

When we are able to observe species in nature that have same-sex relationships, we gain more evidence that neither homosexuality nor bisexuality is a choice, but rather something inherent in the nature of certain individuals. When women have more choices outside the framework of their traditional roles as mothers and caretakers, we gain more evidence that women are not inferior to men. When DNA confirms that all human beings originated from the same ancestry, we gain more evidence that there is nothing superior about any one race over any other race.

Humanity's ability to learn more information about our world gives us new ways and new perspectives on what fairness and justice mean. Our circle of empathy expands; our horizon of moral concern is broadened by the new ways in which our lives are interconnected and intertwined. It has become increasingly difficult for humans to sink into their tribal tendencies and neglect those found to be outside the immediate circle of acquaintances, for we human beings have found more and more that our fate is interdependent on the fates of our fellow creatures. There is no nation, no tribe, no race, and no language that can unify or dominate our world - there is no nation, no tribe, no race and no language that can stand alone and take care of itself alone.

Our evolving morality is largely a product of two trends: our inherent moral intuitions which have evolved for the cooperation of our societies, and the ways in which our existence has been changed by technological discoveries - these two elements have combined to shift our moral compass and provide us with new perspectives on the meanings of old notions like fairness and justice. The underlying concepts are the same - the basic cooperative qualities which compel a society's attention have not changed - but the ways in which we perceive each other as a collection of overlapping societies has indeed changed. Our broader moral outlook is a function of the manner in which our way of perceiving ourselves as human beings has changed.

Q: That certainly sounds impressive, at first. You've argued that certain moral concepts develop in an inherently natural fashion because they advantage the development of complex societies, and that an increasing level of understanding between human beings emerging through new technology has also continued to expand the arc of human moral concern. However, how do you get people to accept this morality? Why should I listen to you?

A: That's a great question - I think you are getting this after all!

Before you ask, no, I am not pulling your leg. Let me explain.

Organized religion is a political system which expedites the acceptance of commonly held moral conventions by the masses. Adherence to the dominant religion of a society is an acknowledgment that one accepts the shared moral code of his or her peers. Religion is a system of political values which distills the accepted mores of the day and disincentivizes free riding from those agreements -- put more simply, religion punishes, or threatens to punish, those who do not pull their fair share.

Of course, we have both agreed that the commonly shared values of individual societies shift greatly and vary widely over time and place. The development and evolution of the dozens of widely embraced branches of the three major monotheistic religions is a prime example of this variation between evolving political values.

Thus, your claim that religion is the safeguard of absolute morality is false, because organized religions are almost exclusively interdependent with the majority views of the societies in which they develop.

Therefore, the paradox of theistic morality is this: while most theistic apologists claim assertively and vigorously that their religion is the safeguard of absolute morality, one of the major reasons that religious apologists abhor non-adherence of their religion is because of their fear that the non-absolute moral agreements of society will collapse if enough individuals dissent from the non-absolute "absolute morality" which is the paradigm of the particular time and place inhabited by said religious apologists.

1 year, 11 months, 14 days

...That's how long it has been since any of you have officially heard from the Stacy & Jared duo. What have we been doing? Let's see...Stacy got a new job and a promotion a year later.We moved into our house together.We've played in probably over 500 games of poker and double that for scrabble.We've watched every season of House.We've watched every season of Dexter.We've watched every season of